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United Nations
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Poll Question: Are you for or against the UN?
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Lmprs View Drop Down
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Posts: 1869 		  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: United Nations
    Posted: 24-Sep-2007 at 06:12
UN is dominated by a few stronger nations. I don't see how anyone can describe it as a 'world government' or anything similar to that.
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2007 at 06:15
Positive. Very positive. Sure, it could be better, but it's better than not having anything at all. It's far better to have a place to meet than not. Meeting and talking is the first step towards solving problems.

As for useless UN peacekeeping, again, if there is but one success out of ten mission it is still success. I've been prepared and basic trained for peace-keeping mission, and those who do go does it out of a genuine interest of doing good and provide safety for those who have none. Even if it is not 100% successive, I think it means a lot that there is at least interest and possibilty for people to risk their own lives in order to save others. All organizations have childhood diseases, and something like the UN, which has never existed prior to the last century, will take quite a while to reach any resemblance of perfection. Only a quitter would give up if his attempts didn't succeed right away.
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2007 at 11:55
Most certainly not the most effective system, but it works sometimes.
 
United Nations needs more power to be able to check the Superpowers. But it's not gonna happen anytime soon...
     
   
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2007 at 12:01
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

I'm not sure that anyone who posted in this thread is aware what the UN is actually for. The UN isn't for peacekeeping, or education, or human rights declarations, it can do none of that and still be necessary. The UN isn't for global government or controlling rouge super powers.
The UN is a meeting place!
The UN is just the collective opinion of the governments of the world. It is a congregation of embassies, where governments can discuss their business with multiple other countries at the same time.

If the UN won't agree to something it is because the governments of the world won't agree to something. If the UN is opposing you its because the countries of the world oppose you. Its solders are provided by countries that choose to. It is not an entity in its own right. It is only a secretariat.

A country pulling out of the UN is like a person refusing to use a telephone.

 
The purpose of the United Nations is to bring all nations of the world together to work for peace and development, based on the principles of justice, human dignity and the well-being of all people. It affords the opportunity for countries to balance global interdependence and national interests when addressing international problems.
 
 
The UN emblem shows the world held in the olive branches of peace.
 
 
WE THE PEOPLES OF THE UNITED NATIONS DETERMINED to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind, and to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small, and to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom, AND FOR THESE ENDS to practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbours, and to unite our strength to maintain international peace and security, and to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and to employ international machinery for the promotion of the economic and social advancement of all peoples, HAVE RESOLVED TO COMBINE OUR EFFORTS TO ACCOMPLISH THESE AIMS. Accordingly, our respective Governments, through representatives assembled in the city of San Francisco, who have exhibited their full powers found to be in good and due form, have agreed to the present Charter of the United Nations and do hereby establish an international organization to be known as the United Nations.
 
 
 
 
     
   
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Sep-2007 at 12:54
I agree with what Styrbiorn said.

And apart from that, people always focus on the military/political actions of the UN. Even if those have been failures, organizations like the World Health Organization or the UNESCO have undeniabily done a lot of good work.
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Posts: 1803 		  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2007 at 02:20
Originally posted by pinguin


Who doesn't respect the UN? I would point to just two countries: Israel and the United States. The first didn't respect the deal for the division of Palestine. The second invaded Iraq against the advice of the UN.


The UN just do what it has power to do. Not much so far because the powerful countries don't want that organism to interfere in theirs business.


With respect to corruption, would you say the UN is more corrupt that the governments of many superpowers? In other terms, even with its corruption the UN is doing something, while the rest do nothing.


Long life to the UN, it is our only hope for global justice and equality. Let's make it strong rather than to destroy it because our particular ambitions. Just imagine what the world would be without the UN. Perhaps it would have dissapeared already because the UN helped to stop the Third World War during the dark days of the Cold War.








Dont isolate just these two countries. Infact, the opposite on Israel is true. Israel accepted the U.N. partitioning of the Palestinian region, it was the Arab countries that didnt. Perhaps the same on the U.S. considering 17 resolutions over a decade were passed threatening Saddam yet the UN would do nothing. Ofcourse, then there is the UN's shameful oil-for-food.

Also, lets not exonerate the UN on corruption because other countries or "superpowers" are corrupt as well. The UN is not exactly dealing with its own money, you should refer to Omar's post. He seems to have the best understaning here on how the UN works.

Yes, lets hope that this organization can clean up its act, grow a backbone and be a force for good.
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Posts: 1460 		  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2007 at 16:51
Originally posted by cattus

Infact, the opposite on Israel is true. Israel accepted the U.N. partitioning of the Palestinian region, it was the Arab countries that didnt.


     Because they offered them a West Bank which is divided into 3 isolated regions in which Palestinians cannot even travel freely in their own land due to the Israeli checkpoints, illegal Israeli settlements, and illegal walls. It was a humiliating settlement and they only offered it to the Arabs because they knew they would refuse. The UN still cannot convince Israel to stop building its walls to divide Palestinian lands and stopping its illegal settlements which are once again messing with the demography of the region, despite the fact that both actions are illegal according to the UN. This is the epitome of the UN's futility in such matters. But we will see what happens.
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Posts: 1460 		  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Sep-2007 at 22:30
Today in the UN General Assembly  confirn that is the first partie  that do not respect  the Body is the UN,   when  the President of the UN and former foreign minister of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia Srgjan Kerim act as x-foreign affair minister of this Balkan State by ignoring without hesitation  its Resolutions .
 
How we then trust the UN  if theirs high-rank officials trespass its Resolutions?
 


Edited by akritas - 25-Sep-2007 at 22:34
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2007 at 12:35
 
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival

Originally posted by cattus

Infact, the opposite on Israel is true. Israel accepted the U.N. partitioning of the Palestinian region, it was the Arab countries that didnt.


     Because they offered them a West Bank which is divided into 3 isolated regions in which Palestinians cannot even travel freely in their own land due to the Israeli checkpoints, illegal Israeli settlements, and illegal walls. It was a humiliating settlement and they only offered it to the Arabs because they knew they would refuse. The UN still cannot convince Israel to stop building its walls to divide Palestinian lands and stopping its illegal settlements which are once again messing with the demography of the region, despite the fact that both actions are illegal according to the UN. This is the epitome of the UN's futility in such matters. But we will see what happens.
 
The point was that Israel accepted the partition in 1948. The Arabs didn't in 1948. There were no Israeli checkpoints or walls or occupying troops at that point.
 
It's not easy to read the map but it looks like the Arab and Israeli sections were both divided into two parts (at a quick look at a small scale map it looks like both were divided into three)
 
The map is too big to insert directly bit it's viewable at http://www.mideastweb.org/palestine_partition_detail_map1947.jpg
 
(You have to look carefully at the roads from Haifa to Galilee, and from Jerusalem to Gaza.)
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Posts: 156 		  Quote SuN. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2007 at 14:27
UN is absolutely necessary. They are doing a lot of good work. An expanded security council with Brazil, India, Japan & South Africa would be far better .
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ulrich von hutten View Drop Down
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Posts: 3638 		  Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2007 at 17:32
It seems to be an issue of Current Affairs, so moved.

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Posts: 1460 		  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 00:43
     Gcle2003, why on earth would the Arabs agree to give up land to create a state which will be populated mostly by New Yorkers, Londoners, Poles, Germans, etc?
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Posts: 744 		  Quote TheARRGH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 01:46
As useful as the UN can be, i think we may eventually need to form a new body-one that is more concrete, efficient, and less able to be stalled. However, many members of the UN would not allow such an entity to be created in the context of the UN, since, as regrettable as it is, some countries view a relatively weak body with little influence as far preferable to anything else for their purposes. Thus, it may become necessary to withdraw from the UN, if only for the purpose of working with other countries to create something different and hopefully better.
Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 08:13
Can we honeslty assess what the UN has achieved? The UN is primarily responsible for the current mess in the middle east. The UN has really failed to stop any significant attrocities since its founding. The UN has been utilised by western nations over and over again to legitimise their wars. They have failed in efforts to keep peace, they have failed to be balanced, they have failed at stopping war crimes and genocide. They have, in fact, been responsible for alot of war.

Their only significant achievements have been in aid, and even in that they aren't being particularly successful. They are naught but a drain on member's resources. Even as a meeting place the system is fundamentally flawed with the security council and veto powers.
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 18:42

There is a truth in what you are saying, Zaitsev... UN is ideally good. What is the problem is the "Security Council". United Nations offer peace talk and a guaranteed meeting place as long as international laws are still in effect. I believe United Nations is absolutely necessary.

But let's think about this for a moment. Who runs United Nations. Who can say yes and no? Who really matters?
 
What can Solomon Island do if United States wanted to go to war in Iraq? What could Mexico say when USSR wants to invade Afghanistan? What could Ireland do when Israel advance to Palestine? What can Iceland do if Rwonda gencoide occurs?
 
In effect, it's not United Nations. It's Union of Superpowers with the support of small powers. If United States wants economical sanction against Iran, it shall be done in the name of United Nations. France, South Korea, Taiwan, India and other small countries have to help out the superpowers.
     
   
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 23:45

You bet Pekau!

If the U.S. want colaborators in wars, it must exist a multinational entity that groups the countries that have to intervine. Rights and duties should be shared.

In the case of the Americas, it is a lot better than the U.N. intervines, rather than a single power like the U.S., the OAS unfortunately isn't though in the way of the OTAN.

We need an international army and navy to control dictators and loonies in small countries. It should be an international and equalitarian organism where all countries have a saying, and the U.S. and other superpowers should subordinate to it.
 
Pinguin
 
 
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Posts: 1230 		  Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 23:50
Well, I for one never want my nation to submit to the whims of any other foreign government or organization. The patriotism in me, even though it has receded greatly in the last year, will never allow me to want the US to be subordinate to anything. 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2007 at 23:59
What if say Iran wanted sanctions against America for its wars of aggression and for past funding of terrorists? Not only will it not even be heard because small countries are ignored, but also it would be vetoed by the US.
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Posts: 744 		  Quote TheARRGH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2007 at 02:59
Originally posted by Adalwolf

Well, I for one never want my nation to submit to the whims of any other foreign government or organization. The patriotism in me, even though it has receded greatly in the last year, will never allow me to want the US to be subordinate to anything. 
 


I can see where your coming from. However, If it becomes a choice between saving millions of lives as a "servant" and remaining a sovereign nation alone, I would have to choose the former. IF it becomes a choice between those two.
Who is the great dragon whom the spirit will no longer call lord and god? "Thou shalt" is the name of the great dragon. But the spirit of the lion says, "I will." - Nietzsche

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2007 at 04:27
Originally posted by Adalwolf

Well, I for one never want my nation to submit to the whims of any other foreign government or organization. The patriotism in me, even though it has receded greatly in the last year, will never allow me to want the US to be subordinate to anything. 
 
 
Yes, it is a good idea to be patriotic. But just don't forget that your bigger country is called planet Earth. From space there are no frontiers and whether we like it or not we live together...
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