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Charles V vs. Suleiman the Magnificent

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Charles V vs. Suleiman the Magnificent
    Posted: 17-Sep-2007 at 21:14

Agree. In fact, Spaniards usually suspected Charles V was more worried about Northern Europe than about Spain itself... There is the sensation that Spain was a cow milked in the benefit of a dinasty didn't work in the benefit of Spain itself at all.

During the government of Charles V and Phillip II, they destroyed methodically the manufacturing industry in Spain, and most of the revenues from the Americas were "magically" shipped outside Spain.
 
Curiously enough, while the ruling classes of Spain were enjoying the river of money arriving, the common people were suffering hunger, and many were escaping to the Americas.
 
Weird,
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2007 at 00:59
Originally posted by pinguin

Agree. In fact, Spaniards usually suspected Charles V was more worried about Northern Europe than about Spain itself... There is the sensation that Spain was a cow milked in the benefit of a dinasty didn't work in the benefit of Spain itself at all.

During the government of Charles V and Phillip II, they destroyed methodically the manufacturing industry in Spain, and most of the revenues from the Americas were "magically" shipped outside Spain.
 
Curiously enough, while the ruling classes of Spain were enjoying the river of money arriving, the common people were suffering hunger, and many were escaping to the Americas.
 
Weird,
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


That's because Spain was a cash crop in taxation terms, the Spanish realm that is Castile, and Aragon were taxed more than any other crown possesion.


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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2007 at 06:52
By the way, if they don't know Don Giovanni (Don Juan Tenorio) it is quite sad...Cry ...they have missed the fun part of art history LOLLOL.
 
Don Juan is globally nobody. Nobodys know him outside of Spanish-speaking world. Even you refer to Don Giovanni opera by Mozart to prove his fame. Mozart also wrote operas about the Ottoman harem. So the harem guard in that opera must be a genious according to you...
 
Besides, Don Quixote was voted not long ago as the best literary book ever written. Between the voters there were many muslim writers that I bet know more about literature that you, fellow.
 
Don Quixote is important for western literature because it is considered the first true novel. As you know novel is a strictily western art form. Rest of the world started writing novels only after the colonial era.
 
Claiming that Don Quixote is 'voted the best literary book ever written' is just stinking garbage. Maybe some literary types voted it the best novel ever written, but no sane person would claim what you wrote. If some lunatics really did that, it just shows nothing but the extent of the narcissistic fantasies the western art circles are masturbating to.
 
And I bet there is not match for Mozart in the world... he was the fellow that addopted Don Juan for his Opera Don Giovanni, anyways.
 
What the f**k is Mozart doing in XVI th century in Charles V's time? What are you smoking?
 
And the West also had recognized the value of the Arabian Nights, the Tao te King and the Kamasutra, among others "oriental" classics, so I believe your claim of Eurocentrism is not fair.
 
For every book the 'Orientalists' studied there are thousand others that they didn't . Some of those books have become popular in the West due to a variety of reasons. They are by no means the only works of literary value that originate from Asia.
 
Tao te Ching is not a literary work, it is a religious text. Kama Sutra is a manual about sexual relations. So your boasts about knowing Asian literature are visibly empty as your general rhetoric.
 
False, people is recognized because its importance to the world. And people like Kahyyam and Alhazen made such important contributions that nobody could forget them, no matter they were Muslims.
 
These people you mention were famous only because they had some influence in the West for some reason or another. Of course they were talented, but there are thousands like them which the Westerners don't know about.
 
Yet you go claiming that you don't know about the rest because they are not talented. I find this western arrogance you are displaying, in one word, disgusting.
 
How about naming me a few Chinese poets? Indian poets? You can't name even one... Even though these countries have literary traditions thousands of years old.
 
So, according to you thousand of years nothing worthwile was written because you never heard of them. These countries are populated by retards, while everyone who wrote one famous book in some European country is a genious, a worthy contributor to 'universal human civilisation'...
 
Every country has local heroes. We are talking in here of figure that transcend locality and are known worldwide.
 
Sorry to hurt your feelings, but Don Juan is strictily a local hero by your criterion. Paris Hilton, however, is known worldwide, so she must be a great genious...
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2007 at 09:04
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

....
Don Juan is globally nobody. Nobodys know him outside of Spanish-speaking world. Even you refer to Don Giovanni opera by Mozart to prove his fame. Mozart also wrote operas about the Ottoman harem. So the harem guard in that opera must be a genious according to you...
.
 
LOLLOL
Yes. Ottomans were curious criatures in those times, exhotics you know, like Don Giovanni himself.
 
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Besides, Don Quixote was voted not long ago as the best literary book ever written. Between the voters there were many muslim writers that I bet know more about literature that you, fellow.
 
Don Quixote is important for western literature because it is considered the first true novel. As you know novel is a strictily western art form. Rest of the world started writing novels only after the colonial era.
.
 
Don't you see it? Even yourself knows him LOL
 
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Claiming that Don Quixote is 'voted the best literary book ever written' is just stinking garbage. Maybe some literary types voted it the best novel ever written,
.
 
Not the best literary work, the best novel indeed, or "book" like I said. Long work, lot of pages, single story, do you get it?
 
 
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

but no sane person would claim what you wrote. If some lunatics really did that, it just shows nothing but the extent of the narcissistic fantasies the western art circles are masturbating to.
 
Narcissist fantasies? Sure, western art suck... gothic catedrals, Da Vinci, Bach and Dali included.... (tell me about biass Big%20smile)
 
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

And I bet there is not match for Mozart in the world... he was the fellow that addopted Don Juan for his Opera Don Giovanni, anyways.
 
What the f**k is Mozart doing in XVI th century in Charles V's time? What are you smoking?
.
 
Mozart? He was just a fellow that wrote music. Some biggots say he was pretty good at it.
 
I don't smoke hachich.. Wink
 
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

And the West also had recognized the value of the Arabian Nights, the Tao te King and the Kamasutra, among others "oriental" classics, so I believe your claim of Eurocentrism is not fair.
 
For every book the 'Orientalists' studied there are thousand others that they didn't . Some of those books have become popular in the West due to a variety of reasons. They are by no means the only works of literary value that originate from Asia.
.
 
Of course. Usually the best works transcend the frontiers and the mediocre works stay where they were born.
 
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Tao te Ching is not a literary work, it is a religious text. Kama Sutra is a manual about sexual relations. So your boasts about knowing Asian literature are visibly empty as your general rhetoric.
.
 
Religious? You are smoking hachich now. I would better say "phylosophical".... Wink
 
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

False, people is recognized because its importance to the world. And people like Kahyyam and Alhazen made such important contributions that nobody could forget them, no matter they were Muslims.
 
These people you mention were famous only because they had some influence in the West for some reason or another. Of course they were talented, but there are thousands like them which the Westerners don't know about.
.
 
Westerns really admire the outstanding figures of the past, like the one mentioned. Now, if those "ignored" deserve recognition, I am certain they will be known sooner or later.
 
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Yet you go claiming that you don't know about the rest because they are not talented. I find this western arrogance you are displaying, in one word, disgusting.
.
 
Yes. Ethnocentrism is quite disgusting
 
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

How about naming me a few Chinese poets? Indian poets? You can't name even one... Even though these countries have literary traditions thousands of years old.
.
 
How many Nahuatl and Mapuche poets can you mention?
Ignorance go both ways, fellow
 
I won't ask you to know Spanish speaking poets or writers because they are usually well known by everybody.
 
With respect to Chineses and Indians, I can hardly say Ni hao and Namashkar, and everytime I learn the meaning of a new Chinese character or Indian god I forget a hundred of others I learn before LOL.
The only solution is translation and, as you know, translation kill poetry.
 
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

So, according to you thousand of years nothing worthwile was written because you never heard of them. These countries are populated by retards, while everyone who wrote one famous book in some European country is a genious, a worthy contributor to 'universal human civilisation'...
 
I never say so.
 
Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Every country has local heroes. We are talking in here of figure that transcend locality and are known worldwide.
 
Sorry to hurt your feelings, but Don Juan is strictily a local hero by your criterion. Paris Hilton, however, is known worldwide, so she must be a great genious...
 
Don Juan is not even an hero. It is a character or archetype Jung's style (sorry to mention a Westerner Wink). It doesn't matter if you know it or not. The only important thing is that you don't find a Don Juan sleeping with your woman... that's the main point
 
Pinguin


Edited by pinguin - 18-Sep-2007 at 09:04
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  Quote Leonardo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2007 at 10:31
Originally posted by pinguin

 
Don Juan is not even an hero. It is a character or archetype Jung's style (sorry to mention a Westerner Wink). It doesn't matter if you know it or not. The only important thing is that you don't find a Don Juan sleeping with your woman... that's the main point
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
LOLBig%20smileWink
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2007 at 11:04
Pardon me but, How can a horny guy become main point of a discussion about cultural superiority?
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2007 at 12:20
Originally posted by Mortaza

Pardon me but, How can a horny guy become main point of a discussion about cultural superiority?
 
It probably shows that XVIth century Spanish had many talents and practised many kinds of art.
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2007 at 12:43

Originally posted by Beylerbeyi

Don Juan is globally nobody. Nobodys know him outside of Spanish-speaking world. Even you refer to Don Giovanni opera by Mozart to prove his fame. Mozart also wrote operas about the Ottoman harem. So the haremguardin that operamust be a genious according to you...

I'm not following the discussion one bit, but Don Juan is well-known in all of Europe at least. If you ask a Chinese he might very well say "huh?" though.
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2007 at 14:15
This must be the worst counter-argument I've read in years. Is there an AE award for this? 
 
In any case, this is the last reply from me.
 
Don't you see it? Even yourself knows him LOL
 
I also knows Paris Hilton, so she must be a genious.
 
Not the best literary work, the best novel indeed, or "book" like I said. Long work, lot of pages, single story, do you get it?
 
So according to you 'novel = book'? Is this a peculiarity of the Spanish language or another manifestation of the nebulous nature of your cognitive facilities?
 
Narcissist fantasies? Sure, western art suck... gothic catedrals, Da Vinci, Bach and Dali included.... (tell me about biass Big%20smile)
 
Western art sucks? Gothic cathedrals? Are you sure you are sober?
 
Of course. Usually the best works transcend the frontiers and the mediocre works stay where they were born.
 
So the thousand years of Chinese and Indian art is mediocre because westerners and some wannabe westerners in the third world never heard of them...
 
Religious? You are smoking hachich now. I would better say "phylosophical".... Wink
 
Taoism is a religion... Tao Te Ching, which is among my favourite texts, is a 2500 year old religous text.
 
How many Nahuatl and Mapuche poets can you mention?
Ignorance go both ways, fellow
 
??? YOU are the one who claims that if someone is a genious you know them and if you never heard of them they are mediocre. I never claimed such a thing. I am sure those people have very talented poets which can rival the best Spain can offer.
 
I find it hard to believe that you are unable to follow your argument in two consecutive paragraphs. I really hope that you are high on somehing...
 
With respect to Chineses and Indians, I can hardly say Ni hao and Namashkar, and everytime I learn the meaning of a new Chinese character or Indian god I forget a hundred of others I learn before LOL.
 
I am not surprised at all about your learning difficulties but they are highly irrelevant. How many Chinese poets have you learned in school? How many books by Chinese poets can you find in a library or buy in your bookstore? 
 
None. If you have 1 book from China, you have 10 from Europe and 100 from the US. And you claim that this difference is due to their respective talents...
 
Don Juan is not even an hero. It is a character or archetype Jung's style (sorry to mention a Westerner Wink). It doesn't matter if you know it or not. The only important thing is that you don't find a Don Juan sleeping with your woman... that's the main point
 
It really gets worse and worse. I was assuming that Don Juan was first written about in the Charles V era, but it turns out that it was written in the 17th century according to wikipedia.
 
So you are basically claiming that Spain had a superior culture because an influential book was written in the next century... Pathetic.
 
Anyway, I think I have explained everything already but unfortunately failed to penetrate your thickly armoured skull. I won't reply to any more of your garbage because you do not deserve any replies other than the kind that gets people warnings.
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2007 at 18:26
At first I warned everyone against ethnic flamewars and historical anachronism.  Now it seems that this thread has become a free-for-all and is not really accomplishing anything.  It has run its course.

Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 18-Sep-2007 at 18:29
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