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The bad side of Islam |
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pekau 
Caliph 
Atlantean Prophet Joined: 08-Oct-2006 Location: Korea, South Online Status: Offline Posts: 3335 |
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 Topic: The bad side of IslamPosted: 28-Sep-2007 at 06:11 |
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Boy, how off topic we became...
Why are people talking about OPEC and Islamic nations' foreign policies? Did Allah said that go to Western world and blow themselves up? Did Mohammad (Umm.. peace upon him or something like that - damn, I tried) say that all Jews must be slaugthered like animals?
I think Al Jassas made it clear.
First and for most, there is NO arab or Muslim country that rules by Islam or have laws that are based on Sharia, except family laws, except in Saudi Arabia. Most of the Arab regimes have declared an unrelenting war on anaything Islamic. In one country, not only females are forbidden by law to wear hijab in government buildings, but any one who is caught praying in a mosque that he is not assigned to he is imprisoned. Pornography must exist in any movie that is produced their and sexual freedoms that do not exist even in the west are protected without metioning government sanctioned prostitution. No, this is not Turkey, it is Tunisia, an arab country run by a dictator like all arab countries without exception. In most arab countries, praying while in the Army or security service is paramount to treason and sometimes punishable by death, in Syria.
Blaming Islam for the problems of the Arab and Islamic world is naive. Actually, No religion supports a culture of business and work like Islam. Taxation is forbidden so as monopolies and power for regulation is severely restricted. But it is dictatorship, corruption and illiteracy that ravages the Islamic world in addition to wars and economic problems. Throughout the Islamic countries dictators only work to consolidate power and kill the will of the people. The reason of the people not rising, in addition to western intervention and/or support of dictators is that people are so preoccupied to find everyday bread that politics are a far away problem. Earlier after independence, Democracy was vibrant and governments came and went peacefully but it was the coups of the 60s ended these freedoms.
Why criticize the "evilness" of Islam committed by non-Islamic people? The terrorists bombing innocent lives, the extremists claiming that women should be treated worse than dogs... these are work done by hypocrat Muslims who do not deserved to be called children of Allah.
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TransientForce
Immortal Guard 
Joined: 26-Sep-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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Posted: 28-Sep-2007 at 09:04 |
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Easy!
Homosexuals are automatically sinners by default. I am yet to hear a logical explanation.
Slandering a woman who wants to have sex is ok.
Woman's imitating man and man's imitating woman is unacceptable.
What does that exactly mean? That women shouldn't work because they might be "imitating men"? Or men should stay out of the kitchen?
Making statues and pictures is a sin. Why is art considered a sin?
However, much of Islam simply doesn't apply any longer, should be changed. But then that is up to Muslims. So long as they don't go around trying to institutionalize their practices ...
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Bulldog
Caliph
Joined: 17-May-2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2800 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 28-Sep-2007 at 15:09 |
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[quote]Mortaza
Turkey is a secular state, Infact more secular than USA. [/quote]
Woah, hold on a minute, one could argue about the very nature of secularism in Turkey and claim it doesn't even qualify, or that it's so called secularism is a sham.
Tell me another Secular state which has a "Department of religous affairs", religion is part and parcel of the state. I think its a beneficial agreement, however, can it be considered "secular".
Infact, the Ottomans had the Sultan and his governing powers and then the religous establishment. The Shey-ul Islam were under the control and part of the Sultan's administration. It can be argued that, todays "Diyanet", is a continuation of the Shey-ul Islam.
Not just the Middle East, speaking of "democracy" anywhere where tribalism exists is pretty ridiculous.
An equal, democratic, open soceity cannot exist where there is tribalism, democracy becomes nothing but a sham, the tribal leader decides who tens of thousands of people will vote for or the religous leaders will.
Did somebody fail to tell you that if there's anybody Osoma hates as much as the Yanks its Ahmadinejad and the Shii muslims
 Or that Osoma was a good friend of your country a few years ago.
Or that these clerics were sponsered and given assistance a few years ago.
Or that nobody is actually fighting a war against America on her soil, its actually the other way round, yet you seem to feel hard-done-by, as if your country is under attack and occupation. Do you also have a problem with the American propoganda and attempts to recruit the poor uneducated impovrished kids from the ghetto's to fight their wars for them...
Do you realise how hypocritical this is? Edited by Bulldog - 28-Sep-2007 at 15:18 |
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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine |
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Mughal e Azam
Colonel 
Joined: 10-Jul-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 646 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 28-Sep-2007 at 15:22 |
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Actually, the reason people cringe at those sources are because they are corporate (and what isnt these days) as well as limited in scope.
Whenever you have a limited scope, you can only give partial answers.
As for being corporate, the greatest harm CNN and FOX do for themselves is having seperate "International" versions of the news. Watch FOX News domestic and then FOX News International to understand how the corporate media spins things for proftis. Its more like they are all actors and tv personalities (the news anchors) rather than bona fide journalists.
Secondly, all domestic American news is very limited and dumbed down to a certain extent. Wherever the "Big News" happens to be Anna Nicole Smith for 4 consecutive days, you knows its f**ked up.
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Mughal e Azam
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Lmprs
Arch Duke 
Joined: 30-Dec-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1869 |
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Posted: 28-Sep-2007 at 22:25 |
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No country is totally secular and Turkey is not an exception.
'State-controlled religion' is not equal to 'religion-controlled state'.
One question: Are you serious? The department of religious affairs has no political influence whatsoever. |
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eaglecap
Tsar 
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 15-Feb-2005 Location: ArizonaUSA Online Status: Offline Posts: 3959 |
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Posted: 04-Oct-2007 at 03:40 |
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I have a hard time keeping up with this. My hope is that Islam has a reformation and we see good hearted Muslims resist the extreme side of their faith. I aplaud any attempt by Muslims to fight for a more peaceful image. I know some here do not like Robert Spencer but I think he has a good point in this video- A 5-point plan to end "Islamophobia" You do not have to agree but at least listen to what he has to say. Has someone started a thread about the good side of Islam?
Frankly, Communism has a far darker side than anything in my opinion, so maybe that would be a good thread. Maybe also the bad side of NFL-lol At least view it and check to see if he has a good solution. http://hotair.com/archives/2007/10/03/new-jihad-watch-the-orwellian-islam-is-peace-campaign/ Edited by eaglecap - 09-Oct-2007 at 21:50 |
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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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Mayra
Janissary 
Joined: 15-Jan-2007 Location: Nigeria/Brasil Online Status: Offline Posts: 29 |
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Posted: 14-Oct-2007 at 06:55 |
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I cannot bear to watch north american television news. They are all puppets. The only good is the BBC. It amazes me that a toothless dockworker back in brasil who also cannot read well knows more about what is happening in the world then the typical american, and actually has an opinion about the world events..people live in an isolate bubble in the u.s. I think 9-11 kind of woke some up but still the people are not looking deeper into the bigger picture where the moneymakers controlling the government are taking them as a people, a nation.
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"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."
" I have no particular talent. I am merely inquisitive". Albert Einstein |
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eaglecap
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 15-Feb-2005 Location: ArizonaUSA Online Status: Offline Posts: 3959 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 17-Oct-2007 at 23:51 |
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Turkey is a secular state, Infact more secular than USA.
Mortaza Try and pass out Bibles in Turkey and see what happens!! Arrest and deportation for foriegners and jail time for Turks. persecution.org Although, things are getting strange here in the USA as well. Some Gideons were passing out Bibles in front of a public school and they were arrested for passing out hate speech but the case was thrown out of court. The arresting cops told the Gideons to pray to your God to get out of this, although, this is an exception here whereas it is not in Turkey. Remember, I have spent time in Istanbul- love the people!! I know your constitution allows freedom of religion but in reality being a Christian there is hard and they have to keep a low profile. I know because I talked to born again Christian Turks while I was there, so if Turkey is truly a secular country then why do christians fear their own government for their religous beliefs??? I also noticed that Prostestant churches were very low profile and hard to find although not the Roman Catholic or Orthodox churches. example: when I was in a book store owned by Christians in Turkey I asked them about their church- they quickly went shhhhhhh!! Someone will hear you!! We do not have the same freedoms here that you do in America" exact words from them - not me!! Something Turkey needs to address if they want to enter the EU. The average Turk I met believed in Freedom of religion but some people in your government do not but to add not all and some believe in this concept as well. I am not saying Turkey is not secular but less secular than the USA - sorry I do not agree with this point. One reason I do not like Pat Robertson who believes that the Christians must rule the nation first before Christ returns. |
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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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Al Jassas
Arch Duke
Joined: 07-Aug-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1810 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 10:31 |
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Hello to you all
Well eaglecap, it seems that you just contradicted yourself in your post. You have been in Turkey and you mentioned nothing about the government confiscating bibles from you and yet you quote some website full of BS. In Turkey and indeed in all the arab world christian book stores are open for everyone and many of these are owned and run by missionary organizations. My friend bought the King James Bible from such a store in Gaza, the book store is still open by th way along with four or five others. As for christians having a hard time, well, you said it yourself, Catholics and orthodox worship publicly, they maintain churches in places where there are no christians in the entire province let alone the city where the church is located. As for protestant denominations espcially Baptists and evangelicals, the stroy is very different.
Citizens who belong to the eastern rite churches have always shown loyalty to their own countries and people especially orthodox christians in Arab lands.Citizens who adhere to such Protestant churches have zero loyalty to their own countries period. They worship the western powers and have joy whenever something happens to muslims or even chritians of other denominations. They glorify masscres and persecution of muslims during the colonial periods and commit hedious crimes in muslms countries that you will not find in persecution.org.
Now you may call me paranoid but I will give you two examples, the palestinian evangelical community and the evangelical berber converts in Algeria. The first have supported not only te creation of Israel, but volunteered in its army, called for the mass transfer of the Palestinian population (christian and muslim) and even condoned targeting civilians with or without reason. One of their leaders was a former "terrorist" living in the US and involved in terrorism against the US. Immense pressure by known evangelicals and jewish organizations rewarded him with American citizenship. In the Algerian case, the government started to act against missionaries after months of vandalism from these groups that included burning mosques, glorifying and even defending French masscres during the 130 years of colonization, but what really stirred this 99% muslim country was vandalism of a cemetary that belong to martyres (also Berbers) massacred early in the century filling it with hurtfull graffiti.
Finally, you said that Turkey should come into terms with christianity in order to enter the EU, well my friend, it is Europe that must come to terms with Islam not the other way round. As far as I know, there are thousands of churches all around the muslim world and tens are build every year and 100 of these serve Istanbul's 20 000 strong christian community. On the other hand, Muslims have been begging the EU member Greece not build a mosque in Athens to serve the 20 000 strong community, the church have already ruled that out, but to give them back one of the several mosques that remained from the time of the Ottomans. Ljubljana's mayor forced a national referendum to decide if it is possible to build a mosque for the "enemy" as he said inhis city after a fight that reached the supreme court which rled in favour of the 40 000 strong muslim community who do not have a mosque. The "liberal" and "Progressive" government of Switzerland is going to force a referendum not on the rising crime or tax burden, but on banning (nationwide) minerates despite the fact the churches in the Islamic world are far bigger than mosques and nobody complained as well as restricting the building of mosques in the country that have 300 000 muslims served by only two minerateless mosques and non of them is where muslims exist. I have not even reached to the juicy stuff but I hope that you look to the whole picture not what you read in filtered sites.
Al-Jassas
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Akolouthos
Sultan 
Joined: 24-Feb-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2091 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Oct-2007 at 10:50 |
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Al-Jassas,
Much of what you said was very informed, and well stated. I do take issue with the following, however.
I will feel sorry for the Turkey and support the drive to build a mosque in Athens once the Turkish government stops confiscating the property of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, stops trying to force the Ecumenical Patriarchate out with a series of laws that will make it impossible to elect a new Patriarch, restores the plundered orphanages and schools to the possession of the Church, starts letting the Ecumenical Patriarch travel more, recognizes his Ecumenical status, does something about all the threats and attacks on the Phanar, and reopens the theological school at Halki. It is patently absurd to portray Turkey as a victim of religious discrimination when it has consistently carried out a campaign of persecution that has left the Ecumenical Patriarchate destitute, deprived of basic civil liberties, and on the verge of either collapse or exile.
Once again, much of what you said was insightful. This, however, was not.
-Akolouthos Edited by Akolouthos - 18-Oct-2007 at 10:52 |
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Antioxos
Consul 
Joined: 26-Apr-2006 Location: Hellas Online Status: Offline Posts: 340 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 19-Oct-2007 at 14:04 |
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In the sixth century AD, the Parthenon was converted into a Christian church dedicated to the Virgin . After the Ottoman conquest , it was converted into a mosque I dont know if you refer to this "mosque".
Furthermore , if you are searching for converted churches to mosque and the opposite go to Cyprus and do a small search to the occupied and to the free areas, there is more recent .I think is very well known that minorities dont have such a good treatment in Turkey.
As concern the mosque in Athens i think that you are not well informed already exist one from mid June.
I think now is the time to have a church in Saudi Arabia because many Christians working there and they dont have a church to pray.
Edited by Antioxos - 19-Oct-2007 at 14:06 |
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Omar al Hashim
King 
Suspended Joined: 05-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5697 |
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Posted: 20-Oct-2007 at 00:47 |
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Actually those articles state that the mosque they wanted wasn't built. The Saudi's donated money to buy a warehouse which they converted into a mosque. But it is separate to the one they were asking for.
Its what I'd call an ad-hoc mosque, not a proper one. |
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eaglecap
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 15-Feb-2005 Location: ArizonaUSA Online Status: Offline Posts: 3959 |
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Posted: 27-Oct-2007 at 04:46 |
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You misunderstood me and thank you for your respectful replies- I said it was Saudi Arabia that was taking the Bibles away and not Turkey. I know about some Christians in a group called Hellenic Ministries who had their Bibles taken away and they were deported from Turkey for evangelism or trying to convert Muslims to Christianity. Yes they allow Bibles in Turkey and I even gave one to a friend in Turkish. I realize that most Muslim countries allow Bibles but not Saudi Arabia. (Hellenic Ministries is a Protestant Christian group that mostly works in Greece.) Now lets look at saudi Arabia - check out the following articles and yes a US State Dept warning about Saudi Arabia http://www.christiantoday.com/article/saudi.arabia.officials.condemned.for.abuses.against.bibles.christian.symbols./2992.htm http://news.spirithit.com/index/middle_east/more/saudis_shred_bibles_rights_campaigners_claim/ STANDARDS OF CONDUCT AND RELIGIOUS POLICE: Islam pervades all aspects of life in Saudi Arabia and is the official religion of the country. Public display of non-Islamic religious articles such as crosses and Bibles is not permitted. Travel to Makkah (Mecca) and Medina, the cities where the two holiest mosques of Islam are located, is forbidden to non-Muslims. I realize it says public display but maybe there is a little zeal with their customs agents- ?? The above is from the US Dept of State http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1012.html |
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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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SuN.
Pretorian 
Joined: 26-Sep-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 156 |
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Posted: 27-Oct-2007 at 08:48 |
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The Pakistan government itself admits that their madrassas & mosques have become nerve centres of terrorism. The army of a islamic republic is attacking islamic mosques & shrinces, because the mullahs whom they so conveniently developed to create terror in foreign lands have become too strong to be controlled by the government itself. Notice the tragedy. The pakistani government itself is calling their mosques places of formenting terror. Need more proof!
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SuN.
Pretorian
Joined: 26-Sep-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 156 |
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Posted: 27-Oct-2007 at 08:54 |
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One of my Hindu friends working in Dubai was sent by his company to saudi for some work. The custom people there confiscated his marriage ring because it had images of a Hindu god engraved. He got it back while flying back in the evening. Dubai is at least a lot better. That's what I have heard. |
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Akolouthos
Sultan
Joined: 24-Feb-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2091 |
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Posted: 07-Nov-2007 at 09:05 |
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This thread, "The bad side of Islam," along with several others, has been moved from "Intellectual Discussions" to the more appropriate "Philosophy and Theology" subforum. Sorry for any inconvenience. -Akolouthos
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-ohcrapitsnico-
Immortal Guard
Joined: 03-Nov-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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Posted: 27-Nov-2007 at 02:00 |
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Assalamu Alaikum
I haven't read all 7 pages becuase frankly I don't have the time but I would like to post of few of my thoughts as a Muslim.
I really don't like it when people attribute the actions taken by governments in the middle east or the policies of those nations to Islam. None of those nations are true Islamic governemnts and much of their actions are religious based nor do they represent true Islam. What I see is a bunch of puritannical sexist men who control a country saying women can't drive or christians can't worship here. Most of these governments were rushed formed and didn't have time to develop themselves due to years of european colonial rule which was highly oppressive and only bred hate for that. That's why when they left the sh*ttiest people were able to come to power as an "islamic republic". A milennia of hate between the two worlds starting with the crusades has flared up recently due to puritannical groups like the Wahhabis who breed ignorance and hate into the young people of the Middle East its sad but true. Unfortunately I don't see that changing any time soon. For those who don't know Muslims and Jews have had far better relations than Christians and Jews in the long term. Medieval Europe was full of Jews living in ghettoes and constant persecution. The christians were so contemptuous of them they denied them basic human rights and decided to just massacre them on the way to the crusades. The muslims lived side by side with the Jews peacefully and equally up until recently. The ottoman sultan saved the Jews and Christians from persecution in the Spanish inquisition. Its really up to you if you want to buy into all the propaganda either side produces so heavily.
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Allahu Akbar
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eaglecap
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 15-Feb-2005 Location: ArizonaUSA Online Status: Offline Posts: 3959 |
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Posted: 03-Jan-2008 at 22:23 |
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I am sorry to say but this hatred started before the Crusades and to be fair all sides have been guilty of barbarism. I think the Communist today are by far the worse- Nepal is one example- Stanlin etc. You have to look at the whole picture and yes the Crusaders did evil and they were not following the example of Christ in many cases but was it totally unjustified? As a person of Greek Byzantine ancestry my ancestors had the right to defend their terrtories from incursion by the Turks and earlier Arabs. It is a shame people have to fight over religion or politics.
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Green/crusades-stenhouse.htm Edited by eaglecap - 09-Jan-2008 at 20:10 |
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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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eaglecap
Tsar
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 15-Feb-2005 Location: ArizonaUSA Online Status: Offline Posts: 3959 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 18-Jan-2008 at 18:19 |
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Taxation is forbidden so as monopolies and power for regulation is severely restricted
explain this! It might true for believers but non-believers have to submit and pay the poll or the so called protection tax. From what I have read the Ottoman's taxed their people quite heavy in the latter centuries. |
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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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Al Jassas
Arch Duke
Joined: 07-Aug-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1810 |
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Posted: 18-Jan-2008 at 18:57 |
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The poll tax or Jizyah was fixed from the early days of Islam to be 5 gold pieces a year on every able bodied man who is fit for military service because non muslims were not recruited into the army nor payed Zakah which is 2.5% of the income on average. If the non muslim was claaed for service he was released from the poll tax. Later, starting with the Abbasids, taxes were levied, incom taxes, sales taxes, customs duties etc and the poll tax was increased due to the large number of non muslims in certain districts. Some of the taxation was to go for the governor who, like in the times of the Romans, used his position to gain huge amounts of money and thus this was not an Islamic practice, it was against Islam.
Al-Jassas
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