I just wanted to add that this idea that we came from the Caucasus is
one of the most ridiculous and hilarious theories EVER presented on the
origins of the Albanians. It is a theory that has ONLY been accepted by
Serb and Hellenic nationalists |
You are allowed to your own opinion but naming me a nationalist since I
was the one to present the theory in this site (not that I reject the
'title') isn't the correct attempt to support your arguments.
1) - Our ethnonym derives from a Latin translation of an old Illyrian tribe's name; Parthini. Parth was the Illyrian version of the modern Albanian word for white, bardh. The Romans translated it into white in Latin, which is alba, hence Albania from the Parthini. |
Who is the linguist that supports this name origin, since every attempt
to connect the Albanians to Illyrians I've seen, claims that the name
derives from the Alban tribe.
Interestingly enough, you claim the name's origin to be from the
ParthHni, did you research inform you that they were a tribe that lived
next to Epidamus, closely related to the Hellinic colonists and allies
of the Roman's against the Illyrian attacks of 229BC?
Guess not otherwise you would have been more carefull.
2) - Most of our toponyms that
date from antiquity have evolved in accordance to our phonetical laws,
which wouldn't be possible if we adopted them from the Slavs who
supposedly settled here before us, which is false.
3) - The little territory of
Albania has kept 300 of its old toponyms, which is a whole lot. In
areas however of the Slavs i.e. Central & Northern Serbia, BiH
& the Dalmatian hinterland, not to mention Slavonija & Slovenia
etc, the old place-names were entirely swept aside! If we came after
the Slavs, wouldn't we had done the same as they did i.e. eliminate all
old place-names and give them new ones? Instead of preserving as much as 300!!!
|
First I never did argue that you adopted the names from Slavs.
Then again, I have posted a list of the place names Ptolemy recorded,
yet not one of you that claim this 'theory' to be rediculous and me a
bloody nationalist, showed the connection in language nor proved that
they continue to be used.
So, here we go again:
Ptolemy:
Book II, Chapter 15
Location of
Illyria or Liburnia, and of Dalmatia
(Fifth Map of Europe)
Illyria is terminated on the north by both Pannonias along those
borders which we have referred to above; on the west by Istria along
that line,
one terminus of which is toward Upper Pannonia in 36*30 4510
the other on the Adriatic in 36*30 4450
It is bounded on the east by Upper Moesia along the line which leads
from the indicated entrance of the Save into the Danube as far as the
Scardus mountains,
the terminal position of which is in 47*00 4140
It is bounded on the south by the part of Macedonia along that line which runs from the indicated terminus to the Adriatic bay,
the other terminus of which is in 45*00 4100
and then by the coast of the Adriatic to the indicated terminus near
Istria. The several parts of its boundaries are in the following order:
after Istria then the land of Italia. In Illyria:
The maritime shore of Liburnia
Alvona 36*50 4500
Flanona 37*00 4450
Tarsatica 37*40 4445
mouth of the Oeneus river 38*00 4445
Volcera 38*30 4445
Senia 39*00 4440
Lopsica 39*15 4440
mouth of the Tedanius river 39*20 4430
Ortopla 40*00 4430
Vegia 40*20 4430
Argyruntum 40*45 4410
Corinium 41*10 4400
Aenona 41*30 4400
Iader colonia 42*00 4345
mouth of the Titus river 42*20 4310
Scardona 42*40 4330
Maritime shore of Dalmatia
Sicum 43*00 4320
Salonae colonia 43*20 4310
Epetium 43*40 4300
Pituntium 44*00 4245
Onaeum 44*00 4230
mouth of the Naronus river 44*30 4220
Epidaurus 44*40 4220
Rhisium 44*40 4215
Acruvium 44*45 4200
Rhizonicus bay 45*00 4200
Butua 45*00 4145
Ulcinium 45*00 4130
mouth of the Drilo river 45*00 4120
Lissus 45*00 4110
The river Drilo flows from the Scardus mountains and from that other mountain which is near the middle of Upper Moesia,
the location of which is in 45*40 4240
From this another river, the Drinus, joining the Save river, empties into it on the west of the town Tauruno.
The Ispydes, the Hyllaei and the Bulimenses inhabit this Istrian
province bordering on the seacoast; above these in Liburnia toward the
west are the Mazaei, then the Derriopes and the Derri, and above the
Derriopes are the Dindari, above these are the Ditiones, and above the
Derri are the Cerauni; in Dalmatia are the Daursi, below whom are the
Melcomenii and the Vardaei, below these are the Narensi and the
Sardiotae and below these are the Siculotae, the Docleatae, the
Pirustae, and the Scirtones near Macedonia.
The inland towns of Liburnia are
Tediastum 39*00 4450
Aruccia 39*30 4445
Ardotium 40*00 4450
Stulpi 39*30 4440
Curcum 40*30 4430
Ausancali 41*30 4445
Varvaria 41*10 4410
Salvia 41*20 4440
Adra 42*30 4440
Arauzona 42*30 4420
Assesia 42*15 4420
Burnum 42*45 4420
Sidrona 43*30 4430
Blanona 42*10 4400
Ouporum 43*00 4400
Nedinum 44*30 4415
The inland towns of Dalmatia are
Andecrium 43*30 4330
Aleta 44*00 4310
Herona 44*20 4345
Delminium 44*40 4320
Aequum colonia 44*30 4320
Saloniana 45*00 4320
Narona colonia 44*20 4245
Enderum 45*30 4250
Chinna 45*40 4230
Doclea 45*20 4215
Rhizana 45*15 4200
Scodra 45*30 4130
Thermidava 46*00 4145
Siparuntum 46*30 4210
Epicaria 45*30 4115
Iminacium 46*00 4120
The islands near Liburnia are Apsorrus, in which are two towns
Crepsa 36*40 4430
Apsorrus 36*50 4430
and Curicta, in which are two towns
Fulfinium 38*10 4420
Curicum 38*20 4415
and the island Scardona, in which are two towns
Arba 40*40 4340
Collentum 41*40 4330
Near Dalmatia are the islands
Issa and the town 42*20 4300
Tragurium and town 43*00 4215
Pharia and town 42*00 4220
Corcyra Nigra 44*00 4145
Melita island 44*10 4120
source :
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer...olemy/home.html
Please do point out how many of these place names continue to be used.
4) - The limited Illyrian vocabulary we know has its descendants in our language.
|
Again a very interesting claim!!!
Please tell me WHY on earth is Albanian totally ALIEN to the Messapic inscriptions found???
5) - Many Illyrian anthroponyms
i.e. personal names have been preserved by the Albanians like Dash from
Dassios, Bardh(osh) from Bardus, Dede from Didi etc - the Illyrian
anthroponyms are also explained by our language like Bardhyllus meaning
white star, from bardh & (h)yll(us) meaning white & star, or
the name of Illyria's oldest known king, Hyllus, from yll or hyll, meaning star! |
I don't see why this is of any relevence. I know of Americans, Germans
among many other people that tend to give their children mythologic
names. Herakles and Homer are really common, could this mean that they
are descendants of the ancient Hellines? Nope.
As for Hyllus, if you do a little mythologic search, you'll find he was
son of Herakles and later king of the Dorians. We also know that the
Dorians were situated for some time in Epirus waiting for 3 yrs so the
myth says. It is quite obvious that the name possibly means Sun from
the Hellinic Hlios and was nothing more than a possible adoption.
6) - In our language two
week-days are attributed to the Illyrian divinities; Thursday is called
after the Illyrian war-fire god Enji and Friday is named after the
goddess of fertility, which was Prema.
7) -
The names/etymologies of other gods as well are also explained through
our language. The whine-god(dess) Dualos is from where our word to be
drunk, dejur, comes from! |
Never heard of any of these Gods being mentioned in any archelogic
article, just in a couple of forums but no source of their origin.
Please do provide one. (and I don't mean alb-net or anything similar)
10) - Our language borrows both
from archaic Latin & Greek, which wouldn't be possible unless we
inhabited the Balkans 2,000 years ago. This is obvious. |
Wrong, every single maritime terminology of Albanian is not your own, but is borrowed from different languages.
Albanian has an insignificant number of ancient Greek loanwords
in Albanian. If the primitive home of the Albanians had been Albania
itself, then the Albanian language would have to have many more ancient
Greek loanwords.
The most ancient loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic
form of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Rumanian, and not of
western Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore,
did not take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.
The Illyrian toponyms known from antiquity, e.g. Shköder from the
ancient Scodra (Livius), Tomor from Tomarus (Strabo, Pliny, etc.), have
not been directly inherited in Albanian: the contemporary forms of
these names do not correspond to the phonetic laws of Albanian. The
same also applies to the ancient toponyms of Latin origin in this
region.
(I wanted to post this one above but it works here also)
Sources :
H. Kronasser, Zum Stand der Illyristik (Linguistique Balkanique, IV,
1962, pp. 5 ff.); R. Katicic', 'Namengebiete im römischen Dalmatian"
(Die Sprache, X, Vienna, 1964, pp. 23 ff.); id., Illyrii proprie dicti
(iva Antika, Skopje, XIII/XIV, 1964, pp. 87 ff.); id., 'Suvremena
istraivanja o jeziku starosjedilaca ilirskih provincija' (Nauno društvo
SR Bosne i Hercegovine, IV, Sarajevo, 1964, pp. 9 ff.); G. Alföldy,
'Die Namengebung der Urbevölkerung der römischen Provinz Dalmatia
(Beiträge zur Namenforschung, 15, Heidelberg, 1964, pp. 54 ff).
11) - Cultural similiairites
between us and Illyrians are striking. Both adored the snake as a
sacred symbol - according to the Greek myths and legends concerning
Kadmos, they say that the Illyrians descended from Kadmos who had
transformed into a snake, which tells alot. Then our clothes are quite
similiar to the Illyrians, as well as other similiarities like the
tradition of tattoos etc! |
Yeah OK, whatever you say.
Many times have I questioned the total lack of historic memory, you so kindly proved I was actually right.
The founding of Illyria was done by his son Illyrios and NOT by Kadmos.
Apollodorus tells us that his parents were punished and he (Illyrios)
was rased by a serpent. Which is how the name was given, after the
'founder/ progenitor' Illyrios, not his father Kadmos.
Now exactly how the clothes are similar is beyond me, unless Albanians
today still dress in chlamys or whatever it was they wore back then.
Tattoos, com'on. You understand that these are actually rediculous
arguments with absolutely NO value. The reference of tattoos is made by
Strabo and Ptolemy when mentioning the Lapydes.
A mixture of Illyrians and Thracians that lived in Lapydia (situated between the Kulpa and Korana river in CROATIA)
You see, sc in Latin was pronnounced h, so Georgiev thinks that it should've evolved in Hodra, instead of transforming sc into shk. This is however disproved by numerous albanian loanwords from Latin which show the same evolution, like shkendia from scantilla which instead of evolving into hendia, adopted the shk sound ... the same goes for shkemb which comes from Latin scampus
etc. So the Albanian version is much closer to the archaic version than
the Slav version is, which wouldn't be possible if we weren't here
prior to the Slavs' arrival, |
This is a waste of time. You've totally screwed up a fine language.
SC sounds like SH
ONLY in Medieval Latin!!!
In classical Latin C and G are always 'hard'.
An joke classical Latin students pull on medieval Latin students is the inscription from a monastery :
Papa fidem scit (The Pope knows the Faith)
scit- > sh*t Get it?????
If this happened in all forms of Latin it wouldn't really be a joke
The true Illyrians are the un-Latinized and un-Slaviziced Albanians.
This is confirmed by diverse facts. The limited Illyrian glossary we
know of is also present in Albanian e.g. veglia (tool) from Illyrian is
also found in Albanian vegla of the same meaning. Other examples are sica=thika=knife, mag=madh=great, rhinon=ren=cloud, mist etc etc.
|
Sorry but I just have to disagree once again.
Illyrian-"alt"= (a stream) Albo -"LUMË, RRYMË, CURRIL, RRËKE, PËRRUA, NIVEL"
Illyrian-"barba"= (a swamp) Albo -"MOÇAL"
Illyrian-"bra"= (brother) Albo-VËLLA, SHOK
Illyrian-"mag"= (great) Albo- FAMSHËM, KRYESOR, FISNIK, SHKËLQYER
Illyrian-"brisa"= (grapes) Albo-RRUSH
Illyrian-"metu"=(between) Albo-MES,NDËRMJET
Illyrian-"oseriates"=(lake) Albo-LIQEN, PELLG
Illyrian-"plo"=(strong) Albo-FORTË, THANTË
Illyrian-"rinos"=(cloud) Albo-HIJE, RE, TUFË
Illyrian-"sybina"=(a spear) Albo-SHTIZË
Illyrian-"teuta"=(a tribe/people) Albo-FIS, KLAN/ POPULL, KOMBËSI, GJINDE
Illyrian-"ves"=(kind) Albo-MIRË, DASHUR, SJELLSHËM
Sources for the Illyrian words:
1. Neroznak, V. Paleo-Balkan languages. Moscow, 1978.
2. Katicic, R. Ancient Languages of the Balkans. The Hague, 1976.
English-Albo translator:
www.foreignword.com
It is also interesting that while we know that the Serbs came to their
present area approx. in the 7th cent. (if not later) we find some quite
interesting connections:
llirian- Serbian- Albanian- English
lugo- lug- pelg - pool
metu- medju- ndermjet- between
bra- brat- velle- brother
vesa- veselo- qelluar- good spirits
barba- bara- pellg- puddle
trtigo- trgovac- dyqanhxi- merchant
Does this mean that the Slavs are also decendants of the Illyrians or is it only your right to have a vivid imagination????
or instance, ancient Dalmatia is explained through the Albanian word delme/dalme
meaning sheep. 'Coincidentally', the Greek geographer Strabo described
Dalmatia as the land filled with sheeps. Dardania is exaplained through
our word dardh
meaning pear. Around and in Dardania, Romans & Slavs translated
indigenious toponyms related to Dardania (pear) to their own languages;
thus we have the Pirustae (peare in Latin) |
(10) On the coast of Illyria, along its whole extent, and in the
neighbouring islands, there are numerous excellent harbours, contrary
to what occurs on the opposite Italian coast, where there are none. As
in Italy, however, the climate is warm, and the soil productive of
fruits; olives also and vines grow readily, except in some few
excessively rugged places. Although Illyria possesses these advantages,
it was formerly neglected, through ignorance, perhaps, of its
fertility; but it was principally avoided on account of the savage
manners of the inhabitants, and their piratical habits.
The region situated above the sea-coast is mountainous, cold, and at
times covered with snow. The northern part is still colder, so that
vines are rarely to be met with either in the hills or in the plains
lower down. These mountain-plains are in the possession of the
Pannonians, and extend towards the south as far as the Dalmatians and
Ardiæi. They terminate towards the north at the Ister, and approach
towards [p. 488] the east close to the Scordisci, who live near the
Macedonian and Thracian mountains.
STRABO book 7 chap. 5
Sorry but absolutely
NO reference to sheep. If you can present the EXACT quote please do.
Not sure where you find your Latin translations but they're wrong.
Latin pear = "pirum" and
pear tree = pirus
Obviously Messapic seems to have alot of common features & vocabulary with our language;
|
Then why is it that no one has managed to deciher this?
klohi zis thotoria marta pido vastei basta
veinan aran in daranthoa vasti staboos
xohedonas daxtassi vaanetos inthi trigonoxo
a staboos xohetthihi dazimaihi beiliihi
inthi rexxorixoa kazareihi xohetthihi toeihithi
dazohonnihi inthi vastima
daxtas kratheheihi inthi ardannoa poxxonnihi a
imarnaihi.
Their word for wolf was Daunus, which rersembles our word for violence,
dhune, or teeth, dhembe! Their word for strong 'plo' resembles our word
for someone who's heavy and powerfull, plote! |
You can obviously see that these examples by no means support any kind
of linguistic continuety. A wolf is a wolf, so why adopt a totally new
word for it when you already have one. It should have at least kept
it's original meaning along with eveolving into 'newer' ones.