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Are Albanians related to Greeks?

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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Are Albanians related to Greeks?
    Posted: 04-Mar-2005 at 23:17
neritan

Thanks for the corrections, since my knowledge of Albanian is next to nothing. My source for the words posted was:
www.foreignword.com

Oguzoglu
Interesting theory, but unfortunately for the supporters of this, the following quote proves the use of this symbol at least 500yrs before the Seljuks even stepped foot in the area.
Any simple search for ancient coins will support what you'll see here.

"
147 PARTHIA, Orodes II. 57-38 BC. AR Drachm (3.62). Bare-headed bust left, royal wart on forehead, star before face, crescent with star below behind head/ Archer seated right on throne holding bow, anchor behind archer. Shore-261, Sellwood 48.9. VF, stained $50.00"

http://rosenblumcoins.com/34d/ancientgreek

It is interesting to note that your first flags never did have a cresent and star symbol on them.
Turkic White Hun Empire (420-552) had three five-pointed gold stars on a white background,
Turkic Khazar Empire (602-1016 ) had five five-pointed white stars on a blue background.
Turkish Gazneli Empire (962-1183) had a crescent and a peacock on a green background
The Great Seljuk Empire (1040-1157 AD) and the Seljuks of Rum (1077-1308)  had 'crescent and star" on them

So we see that only after the obvious Byzantine influence did you adopt the cresent as a symbol.
Remember the "Vardariots"???


HELL OF STEEL

1.At what year the name Greek(greeks)was used?

2.Where was the boundary of the known hellenic people according o ancient historygraphers as Plinius, Strabonus ecc.?


Year??????
Anyway, Greece from Graecus mythical son of Deukalion, so actually this name is linked to the beginning of the Hellinic people. Also, Aristotle (384BC) and Apollodoros (180BC), wrote about the "Graeci" that were the "Selle" or "Helle" a Hellinic tribe of Epiros.

According to Strabonus the north of Peloponesus was inabitated by barbarian tribes(didn't spoke a language comprensive of Strabonus)

I'd like to see where this can be found since in (BOOK 8) he clearly wrote:
It was not in the parts only on the other side of the isthmus, that the olian nation was powerful, but those on this side also were formerly olians. They were afterwards intermixed first with Ionians who came from Attica, and got possession of gialus,10 and secondly with Dorians, who under the conduct of the Heracleid founded Megara and many of the cities in the Peloponnesus. The Iones were soon expelled by the Achi, an olian tribe; and there remained in Peloponnesus the two nations, the olic and the Doric. Those nations then that had little intercourse with the Dorians used the olian dialect. (This was the case with the Arcadians and Eleians, the former of whom were altogether a mountain tribe, and did not share in the partition of the Peloponnesus; the latter were considered as dedicated to the service of the Olympian Jupiter, and lived for a long period in peace, principally because they were of olian descent, and had admitted into their country the army of Oxylus, about the time of the return of the Heracleid.11 ) The rest used a kind of dialect composed of both, some of them having more, others less, of the olic dialect. Even at present the inhabitants of different cities use different dialects, but all seem to Dorize, or use the Doric dialect, on account of the ascendency of that nation.


eaglecap
Like my old college professor use to say, "The Greeks are the descendants of the ancient Greeks plus everyone else who came along."

There is a slight problem here, you are using a historian when you should be using a genetist.
Of course Hellines are not a "pure race", but the available data demonstrates that any potential introgression into the Hellinic gene pool were minor and did not replace the indigenous people.

some souces:
Rosser et al. (2000) European Y-Chromosome Diversity.
Semino et al. (2000) The genetic legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans
Di Giacomo et al. (2003) Clinal Patterns of human Y chromosomal diversity in continental Italy and Greece are dominated by drift and founder effects.

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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 01:18
Quote:
eaglecap
Like my old college professor use to say, "The Greeks are the descendants of the ancient Greeks plus everyone else who came along."

There is a slight problem here, you are using a historian when you should be using a genetist.
Of course Hellines are not a "pure race", but the available data demonstrates that any potential introgression into the Hellinic gene pool were minor and did not replace the indigenous people.

There doesn't seem to be an appreciable difference between what the two of you are saying. 

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  Quote Artaxiad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 01:47

(This is about a message posted earlier)

Why would Arabs convert the Caucasian Albanians to Islam, and ''skip'' some of the surrounding nations under their rule, such as the Armenians or the Georgians?

The Caucasian Albanians used an alphabet almost identical to the Armenian alphabet. What alphabet did the Balkan Albanians use? 

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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 11:54
Why would Arabs convert the Caucasian Albanians to Islam, and ''skip'' some of the surrounding nations under their rule, such as the Armenians or the Georgians?

The Caucasian Albanians used an alphabet almost identical to the Armenian alphabet. What alphabet did the Balkan Albanians use?


Good question but unfortunately don't have a good enough explanation for it.

On your second question, true the "later" Caucasus Albanian writing was similar if not identical as you say, which is the main reason that many scholars believe that the Caucasus Albanians never had a written language of their own.
Since all Albanian texts were written in Armanian.

Some scholars believe that the "original" Albanian texts "disappeared" because the Armenian clerics were burning them. (Albanian church was "Diophysite" while the Armenian was "Monophysite") When we add this to the Arab invasions, we understand the diappearance.
If we add the fact that the both the Albanian people and "script" totally disappear from this area between 9th-10th cent. approx. the time that they appear in Sicily as mentioned before, it does become clearer.

As for the Balkan Albanians,  their first written script found is that of Gjon Buzuku titled "Meshari" in 1555. So it is actually difficult to "trace" how the language developed.

It is very  interesting to note that the Balkan Albanian script before they adopted the one they use today in 1908, was a mixture of Hellinic, Latin and Arab script. Hellinic and Latin can easily be explained in both versions, either in the decendants of the Illyrians or in the Caucasus version. And I could understand, but why would they adopt the Arab script???
Ottoman rule could be the explanation if we had seen a similar influence in other occupied by the Ottomans areas, which we do not.


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  Quote Qnzkid711 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 13:25

 he Albanian alphabet is based on the Latin alphabet, with the addition of the letters , , and nine digraphs to account for certain sounds in pronunciations. Until 1908, when the Latin alphabet was introduced in Albanian, the Greek alphabet, Cyrillic alphabet, and the Ottoman Turkish version of the Arabic alphabet had been used to write Albanian.

 

From Wikipedia.

"Europe and Asia are finally mine. Woe to Chritendom. She has lost her sword and shield."
Ottoman Sultan after hearing of the death of Skenderbeg.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 15:27

Originally posted by Kuu-ukko

Originally posted by Oguzoglu

Also today, none of the Arabic countries use these symbols in their flags. The ones which are using these are influenced with Turkish beliefs...


Tunisia, Algeria and Mauritania have the exact same symbols in their flags, but they aren't influenced by Turkish beliefs, they have nothing to do with Turkey. The only thing common with for example Algeria and Turkey is Islam. What we can conclude from this............


neritan aren't Albanian and Illyrian recognized with some other language as originating from a same proto-language? PS. Nice examples about the similarities

These countries cannot be counted as real Arabic countries since they are mostlu Berberi and other North Africans (Hami). But this is possible that they are heavily influenced with Turkish culture since they were under Turkish rule for hundreds of years. And Mauritania was also influenced...

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 15:41

"Oguzoglu
Interesting theory, but unfortunately for the supporters of this, the following quote proves the use of this symbol at least 500yrs before the Seljuks even stepped foot in the area.
Any simple search for ancient coins will support what you'll see here.

"
147 PARTHIA, Orodes II. 57-38 BC. AR Drachm (3.62). Bare-headed bust left, royal wart on forehead, star before face, crescent with star below behind head/ Archer seated right on throne holding bow, anchor behind archer. Shore-261, Sellwood 48.9. VF, stained $50.00"

http://rosenblumcoins.com/34d/ancientgreek

It is interesting to note that your first flags never did have a cresent and star symbol on them.
Turkic White Hun Empire (420-552) had three five-pointed gold stars on a white background,
Turkic Khazar Empire (602-1016 ) had five five-pointed white stars on a blue background.
Turkish Gazneli Empire (962-1183) had a crescent and a peacock on a green background
The Great Seljuk Empire (1040-1157 AD) and the Seljuks of Rum (1077-1308)  had 'crescent and star" on them

So we see that only after the obvious Byzantine influence did you adopt the cresent as a symbol.
Remember the "Vardariots"???"

But as you see, all the Turkish empires had their flag according to their countries position (East-blue, west-red etc.), according to their beliefs (Gktanr, Shamanism, Maniheizm, Islam etc.), and according to their political structures. But the only common thing was always Turkic beliefs and symbols. For example, the Huns could have five pointed stars to show some beliefs, the Gktrks could have a wolf head to show their origins and religion on their flag, the Seljuks could have a two headed eagle and an arch on it as a symbol of Oguz rule of both the east and the west. The Ottomans could be gifted with a crescent and a star by the Seljuk sultan symbolising the western Turkish lands (red color- meaning west, the background) and their authority over everything, moon (crescent, night) and eight pointed star (sun,day)... These were also old symbols of middle east, old Turkic symbols, the symbols of Istanbul and Islam. So adapting all of them according to Ottoman Empire and forming the most suitable flag was the most ideal decision to take...

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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 18:47
Qnzkid711

Why such a selective copy and paste?????
You found the source, good for you. The least you could do is paste exactly what it says, instead of only posting what suits you:

  He formed a 33-letter alphabet from Latin alphabets and called it Evetor. This alphabet was mainly used in southern Albania. Other variants of the time included a Catholic alphabet used by Arbresh (Italo-Albanians), an Arabic one favored by the pashas, and the Istanbul one created by Sami Frashri based on the Latin script with certain Greek characters. The latter became widely used as it was also adopted by the Istanbul Society for the Printing of Albanian Writings, which in 1879 printed Alfabetare, the first abecedarium. Another variant similar to the Istanbul one, Bashkimi, was developed by the Albanian literary society Bashkimi (The Union) in Shkodr with the help of Catholic clergy and Franciscans that aimed to be simpler. Yet another version, Agimi, was developed by another literary society called Agimi (The Dawn) and spearheaded by Ndre Mjeda in 1901.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_alphabet


If you read it again you'll see the site you decided to quote, clearly notes the difference between the Arab and the Turkish "alphabets".


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  Quote Qnzkid711 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 19:12

Also may I add that Albanian is one of the only languages where Illyrian names and titles can be translated Illyrian(ilir=free, Illyrian= "The free" though now its written vice versa kind of like IanIllyr). Look them up.  Not to mention the names of tribes and such. Names that date BEFORE Enver Hoxha.  Yet, how can that be if Illyrians had no written language were eaten up by the serbs? Not to mention the tons of different sources that state Albanians are Illyrians.
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Ottoman Sultan after hearing of the death of Skenderbeg.
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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2005 at 21:04
Yeah, I've seen how you choose to post info.
So you see a connection???
Then why would:

Neroznak, V. Paleo-Balkan languages. Moscow, 1978.
Katicic, R. Ancient Languages of the Balkans. The Hague, 1976.
Fasmer, M. The Etymological Dictionary of the Russian Language. Moscow, 1986.

All consider Albanian totally alien to the Messapic inscriptions found?

There might be a few examples of some names having some meaning in Albanian but the ammount of "names" that have absolutely no connection far too many, for this to prove anything.

Let's continue with what some linguists have concluded.

1. The Illyrian toponyms known from antiquity, e.g. Shkφder from the ancient Scodra (Livius), Tomor from Tomarus (Strabo, Pliny, etc.), have not been directly inherited in Albanian: the contemporary forms of these names do not correspond to the phonetic laws of Albanian. The same also applies to the ancient toponyms of Latin origin in this region.

2. The most ancient loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic form of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Rumanian, and not of western Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore, did not take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.
(this is from another theory that proves your origin to be somewhere in Carpathia)

3. The Adriatic coast was not part of the primitive home of the Albanians, because the maritime terminology of Albanian is not their own, but is borrowed from different languages.

4. Another indication against local Albanian origin is the insignificant number of ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian. If the primitive home of the Albanians had been Albania itself, then the Albanian language would have to have many more ancient Greek loanwords.

5. The Albanians are not mentioned before the 10th century a.d., although place names and personal names from the whole region of Albania are attested in numerous documents from the 4th century onwards.

6. The old home of the Albanians must have been near to that of the proto-Rumanians. The oldest Latin elements in Albanian come from proto-Rumanian, i.e. eastern Balkan Latin, and not from Dalmatian, western Balkan Latin that was spoken in Illyria. Cf. the phonetic development of the following words:
Vulgar Latin caballum 'horse' Rum. cal, Alb. kal
Vulgar Latin cubitum 'elbow' Rum. cot. Alb. kut
Vulgar Latin lucta 'struggle, fight' Rum. lupt, Arum. luft, Alb. luftλ
(same theory mentioned)


Sources :
H. Kronasser, Zum Stand der Illyristik (Linguistique Balkanique, IV, 1962, pp. 5 ff.); R. Katicic', 'Namengebiete im rφmischen Dalmatian" (Die Sprache, X, Vienna, 1964, pp. 23 ff.); id., Illyrii proprie dicti (iva Antika, Skopje, XIII/XIV, 1964, pp. 87 ff.); id., 'Suvremena istraivanja o jeziku starosjedilaca ilirskih provincija' (Nauno društvo SR Bosne i Hercegovine, IV, Sarajevo, 1964, pp. 9 ff.); G. Alfφldy, 'Die Namengebung der Urbevφlkerung der rφmischen Provinz Dalmatia (Beitrδge zur Namenforschung, 15, Heidelberg, 1964, pp. 54 ff).

Since you did mention "names" or as you said titles :
In Ptolemy's Geography:
Book II, Chapter 15
Location of Illyria or Liburnia, and of Dalmatia
(Fifth Map of Europe)

He gives us a list of place-names:
Alvona, Flanona, Tarsatica, mouth of the Oeneus river, Volcera ,Senia, Lopsica ,
,mouth of the Tedanius river,Ortopla ,,Vegia ,,Argyruntum ,Corinium ,Aenona ,Iader colonia ,mouth of the Titus river ,Scardona Maritime shore of Dalmatia,Sicum ,Salonae colonia ,Epetium ,Pituntium ,Onaeum ,mouth of the Naronus river ,Epidaurus ,Rhisium ,Acruvium ,Rhizonicus bay,Butua ,Ulcinium ,mouth of the Drilo river ,Lissus ,The river Drilo ,Scardus mountains ,Upper Moesia,the Drinus river, the Save river,Tediastum ,Aruccia, Ardotium ,Stulpi ,Curcum ,Ausancali ,Varvaria ,Salvia ,Adra ,Arauzona ,Assesia ,Burnum ,Sidrona ,Blanona ,Ouporum ,Nedinum Andecrium ,Aleta ,Herona ,Delminium ,Aequum colonia ,Saloniana ,Narona colonia ,Enderum ,Chinna ,Doclea ,Rhizana ,Scodra ,Thermidava ,Siparuntum ,Epicaria ,Iminacium , Crepsa, Apsorrus, Fulfinium, Curicum

Out of all these place-names please tell me how many have a meaning in your language?

It is also very interesting to note that we can even find some connection between Slavic and Illyrian, even though it is a well known fact that they only arrived in this area during the 7th cent.

Illirian- Serbian- Albanian- English
lugo- lug- pelg - pool
metu- medju- ndermjet- between
bra- brat- velle- brother
vesa- veselo- qelluar- good spirits
barba- bara- pellg- puddle
trtigo- trgovac- dyqanhxi- merchant (Lithuanian=tirgus)maybe they have some Illyrian blood also

Here is an interesting article you might want to read.
http://members.aol.com/Plaku/illyrian.htm





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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2005 at 06:22
Bloody hell Phallanx! What do you do for a living? Don't tell me that you study all this just for hobby!
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2005 at 06:32
Don't see what I do for a living has to do with it, but just to answer, I'm what you'd call a "gentleman at large", and yes you could call this a hobby. Why find it so suprising?


Edited by Phallanx
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2005 at 07:04

No offence intented!

I was just amazed and delighted by the detail in your post (admired is a more appropriate word).

The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2005 at 12:32
Originally posted by Phallanx


All consider Albanian totally alien to the Messapic inscriptions found?


exist one version decipher from albanian of the Vasta Messapic inscriptions

Messapic

klohi zis thotoria marta pido vastei basta
veinan aran in daranthoa vasti staboos
xohedonas ....

albanian
 
Kjo zonje e quajtur Emarta prej Vasta bashkon
arat e veta me ato te teresise se Vastes.Shterpesia( shkretesia)
e koheve te fundit ....

english

This lady named Marta fron Vasta associate
her fields with ......

Originally posted by Phallanx


1. The Illyrian toponyms known from antiquity, e.g. Shkφder from the ancient Scodra (Livius), Tomor from Tomarus (Strabo, Pliny, etc.), have not been directly inherited in Albanian: the contemporary forms of these names do not correspond to the phonetic laws of Albanian. The same also applies to the ancient toponyms of
Latin origin in this region.


the illyrian toponyms have been directly inherited in albanian and  these name do corespond to the fonetic laws of albanian:
Ragusium: Rush rrush (Ragusa, dubrovnik);Brindia Brundisium: bri brini (Brindisi); Bigeste: bige (mountain with 2 yeast); Dardania: dardhe (pear); Delmatia: delme,dele (sheep); Lamatis: lam lme,Ulkinion: ulk,Ujk (wolf); Vendum: vend (place); Scodra: Shkoder; Astibus: Shtip; Naissus: Nish; Scupi: Shkup; Drivastum: Drish; Pirustae: Qafa e Prush*t; Lissus: Lesh; Dyrrachion: Durres; Isamnus: Ishem; Scampinus: Shkumbini; Aulon: Vlone Vlore; Thyamis: am;

Originally posted by Phallanx


2. The most ancient loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic form of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Rumanian, and not of western Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore, did not take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.

ancient western balkan latin in albanian:
"augustus = gusht", "angustum = (i) ngushte," "cresta = kreshte", "colostrum = kulloshter", "castanum = geshtenje" "castellum = keshtjelle", "magister = mjeshter", "mustus = musht

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Mar-2005 at 12:43
Originally posted by Phallanx



Illirian- Serbian- Albanian- English
lugo- lug- pelg - pool
metu- medju- ndermjet- between
bra- brat- velle- brother
vesa- veselo- qelluar- good spirits
barba- bara- pellg- puddle
trtigo- trgovac- dyqanhxi- merchant (Lithuanian=tirgus)maybe they have some Illyrian blood also


illyrian barba -- albanian berrak (swampy soil) balta (soil)
tertigo  -- tregtar   (dyqanxhi is an turkish word)
bra(brother) -- vlla not velle(brother)
b-->v  'v' is many times changed into 'b' in ind.eu.langauges.
metu(between)--midis,mes,
lugo(pool)-- in albanian exist the word lag (the root of the word lugo[u-->a]) -- damp, lugine -- valley and lagune


Edited by neritan
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2005 at 08:05
Originally posted by Phallanx


6. The old home of the Albanians must have been near to that of the proto-Rumanians. The oldest Latin elements in Albanian come from proto-Rumanian, i.e. eastern Balkan Latin, and not from Dalmatian, western Balkan Latin that was spoken in Illyria. Cf. the phonetic development of the following words:
Vulgar Latin caballum 'horse' Rum. cal, Alb. kal
Vulgar Latin cubitum 'elbow' Rum. cot. Alb. kut
Vulgar Latin lucta 'struggle, fight' Rum. lupt, Arum. luft, Alb. luftλ
(same theory mentioned)


exists around 200 words in common from proto rumanian (old tracia-dacia, not old eastern Balkan Latin) another words are:
buză ang.lip (cf. alb. buz idem) ceafă neck (cf. alb. qaf idem), grumaz larynx (cf. alb. grumas, gurmaz ), guşă craw, crop (cf. alb. gush idem), burtă stomach,(< i-e. *bher take',> *bhr-to,alb. barku), rnză gizzard, ventricle (cf.alb. rnds rennet; coagulant, cf. taken from albanian of Italia rrnd idem ); famiglia: copil boy (cf. alb. kopil idem), moş "old"  (conf. alb.mosh age);  argea kind of room (cf. mac. άργελα, cim. άργιλλα idem, trac. αργιλος topo alb. ragal hovel), mătură broom (cf. alb. netull, -a, netll idem; from the term of plant (sorgum vulgare, sorgum saccharatum),saggina), vatră fireplace (cf. alb. gheg. vatr, tosc. vatr, vatr idem); grapă harrow (cf. alb.*grap, un plurale di *grap, grep, cane, gresie sandstone (cf. alb. gress, gres grater), baci shepherd (cf. alb. ba-i shepherd e bac-i, bac a grand brother), ţarc closed (conf. alb. thark, cark trap), mazăre pea (cf. alb. modhull, modhult  idem ) ......

in italian document (http://www.geocities.com/serban_marin/fratila2002.html)
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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2005 at 22:03
Here is what the site you quote, After using an online translator I found nothing that mentions any connection between Albanian and Illyrian.


"From the traco-daciche native populations one has been conserved a series of voices whose varied number from investigator to investigator. These words refer to agriculture and to pastorizia the main activity of the Thracians and of they give to us and, later, of the romanizzate populations of the province Danube of the roman empire of east.
Other terms refer to the shapes of the relief, to the flora and the fauna of the regions of hills and montuose in which the romanizzata population it lived in the time of the great invasions. Many of these words have entered to make part of the base dictionary, having one high frequency and one wide circulation, and being characterized from large-capacity to form derives to you or to enter like members in idiomatiche expressions. Some of the elements of native origin have of the correspondents in Albanian, others are specific only of the romeno. The voices inherited from the sostrato one refer to parts of the human
body:"



Messapic

klohi zis thotoria marta pido vastei basta
veinan aran in daranthoa vasti staboos
xohedonas ....

albanian
 
Kjo zonje e quajtur Emarta prej Vasta bashkon
arat e veta me ato te teresise se Vastes.Shterpesia( shkretesia)
e koheve te fundit ....

english

This lady named Marta fron Vasta associate
her fields with ......


Now this is very interesting.
I could post a long list of linguists, that all support the FACT that this "text" is actually UNDECIPHERED,yet you managed to do the impossible, connect it to Albanian and translate it to english

(here are the first two sites I found after a simple search)
http://indoeuro.bizland.com/tree/balk/messapic.html
http://www.geocities.com/indoeurop/tree/balk/messapic.html

[QUOTE] the illyrian toponyms have been directly inherited in albanian and  these name do corespond to the fonetic laws of albanian/QUOTE]


"Delmatia: delme,dele (sheep)"

Dalmatia or Delmatia, which is of Arnautic origin, is "land of shepherds" (delminium pasture for sheep).
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04606b.htm
As you see this isn't even an Illyrian word.

"Ragusium: Rush rrush (Ragusa, dubrovnik)"

The origin of the name Dubrovnik comes from the Slav word for oak - "dub".
If we were to look up the "history" of this area we'd find that the present-day town which is situated in this area is named "Cavtat" (nothing Illyrian here)
Ragusium is of Latin origin
(in Italian: Ragusa)

Dyrrachion: Durres;
Dyrrachion is a place name of Hellinic origin, not Illyrian.

Anyway, to stop this useless argument, since predominant scholars haven't actually came to a conclussion yet, I find it hard that we will.

Here is the whole theory and the arguments as recorded by Eric P. Hamp, Chicago University.

http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/balkan/ehamp.html




 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 14:35
Now this is very interesting.
I could post a long list of linguists, that all support the FACT that this "text" is actually UNDECIPHERED,yet you managed to do the impossible, connect it to Albanian and translate it to english

(here are the first two sites I found after a simple search)
http://indoeuro.bizland.com/tree/balk/messapic.html
http://www.geocities.com/indoeurop/tree/balk/messapic.ht ml


I say: exist one version decipher from albanian of the Vasta Messapic inscriptions
Not this is establish!!!

in the site http://indoeuro.bizland.com/tree/balk/albanian.html I foud:
"Albanian is a descendant of ancient Paleo-Balkan languages, Illyrian, Messapic and Thracian. Historically two main dialectal groups exist: Gheg and Tosk, both understand each other."


  Dalmatia or Delmatia, which is of Arnautic origin, is "land of shepherds" (delminium pasture for sheep).
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04606b.htm
As you see this isn't even an Illyrian word.


Arnautic is a forme disdain for say albanian????
In turkish arnaut = albanian

The origin of the name Dubrovnik comes from the Slav word for oak - "dub".
If we were to look up the "history" of this area we'd find that the present-day town which is situated in this area is named "Cavtat" (nothing Illyrian here)
Ragusium is of Latin origin
(in Italian: Ragusa)

the origin latin of Ragusium is to discute. But from an toponim ragusium in the territory inhabitet from from illyrian exist an direct inherited in albanian. The name used in albania for Dubrovnik until 1600 is Rush.


Dyrrachion: Durres;
Dyrrachion is a place name of Hellinic origin, not Illyrian.

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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2005 at 19:51
Arnautic is a forme disdain for say albanian????
In turkish arnaut = albanian


I find it quite interesting how you(general) selectively use a number of "terms" to identify yourselves. From the Arber to the Arnauts all suposedly describe a race of people that aren't actually more than a couple of million, always depending on which time of history we discuss.
Anyway, this actually proves my point, even though I neglected to mention it in my earlier post, arnaut does NOT mean Albanian in Turkish but it is the name the Turks use to describe you and means "those that have not returned" from an Arabic loan word. So how could you be the Arnauts, if you are not the same ones from Caucasus as the Turkish word describes?!?!?!
You must make up your minds
(I'm sure that some of the Turks in here will support that this meaning is correct)

Which brings us back to the Caucasus origin, something that was never proven to be totally wrong, but thanks to your assistance may actually be your true origin.
As mentioned before, the Arabs enslaved you and "transfered" you from the Caucasus, where Maniakos found you and brought you to your current position from Sicily.
This event is recorded by M. Ataliotos in his chronicle: "Historia, Corpus Scriptorum Historiae Byzantinae. Impensis ed. Neberi, Bonnae"

So the only connection you may actually have to the Illyrians is that you assimilated them. More proof of this is the very name your country has that is much more than a coincidense.
The Avar (from Caucasus) after invading and conquering part of the Balkans gave the names to these areas. So we find
that in the Lesghian-Avar language, Serbia is the Balkan Crna Gora and has the exact same toponym of the land they left behind also called Crna Gora, now part of Daghestan.
In the Lesghian-Avar language: Srbi means "people." Also, in the Lesghian-Avar language: Albania is the land they called their homeland, neighbouring Armenia, known as Ancient Caucasian Albania.


Did you take a look at the link provided?


Edited by Phallanx
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  Quote Tlaloc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 22:40
Recent genetic analysis shows that the Greeks are remarkably homogenous, so chances are so significant amount of Albanians was absorbed into the Greek population. I'll see if I can find the link.

But, I do know that in some cases the few remaining Albanian Orthodox near the Greek border are considered to be Greek by their neighbours.
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