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Are Albanians related to Greeks?

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Phallanx View Drop Down
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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Are Albanians related to Greeks?
    Posted: 21-Oct-2005 at 13:47
Thanks for clearing that one...
I was worried for a min' that you too had fallen for the recent misconseption promoted by various circles of doubtfull origin, that like to support these ideas. Ideas that have actually presented a corrupt version of history to us...
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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  Quote TheodoreFelix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2005 at 15:09
Wasnt "Arvanitie" a change from the original name of Albanians "Arbanities"? Similarly in Italy, the Albanians who settled there during different eras of the Ottoman conquest of the country call themselves "Arberesh"

In the book The Late Medieval Balkans by John Fine he writes:

"Greek was undergoing evolution at the time with the b coming to be pronounced as a v."

In the book The Fall of the Byzantine Empire: The accounts of George Sphratzes, the author Philipiddes translated what Sphratzes wrote on the Albanians settled in the Morea by Venetians during Greek civil strife:

" The base and most useless race of the Albanians took advantage of the present situation, which suitable to their reputation and thievish disposition. What they neglect to do, what crime did they not commit? For their broken faith, sometimes twice in the same Sabbath and were always deserting one lord for the other. They demanded, in their own tongue, castles for their estates; if they were denied by one lord they would run to the other despot, while the rest would then approach the first despot in a similar way. In the meantime, of they found anything belonging to the unfortunate Romans [Greeks] and even to the Albanians, to their relatives and dependants, they would plunder and destroy it. Who could provide an adequet lamentation over such great misfortunes?

In The Letters of Manuel II Palaeologus, he writes about an Albanian revolt in the Pelopenesus he writes:

"First of all, those who are superior in the character and wisdom... strongly approved the idea of not leaving themselves constantly exposed as easy spoil and prey to the hands and mouths of their enemies... All the swarms of Illyrians [Albanians] thought and said the same."


We know many of these Arvanities were originally settled in the area as they fought under Greek or Venetian generals as Stradioti.

In the article by Nicholas Pappas on the Stradioti I quote him in this part:

" The Albanians served as military colonists in the Peloponnesus in the attempt of the Despotate, an appanage of the moribund Byzantine Empire, to survive the expansion of the Ottoman Empire in the Balkans "

Many were then taken by Venetians and resettled in Greece with other Greeks who left Greece. because of this we have the city of Greci today in southern Italy. Though the name, today the town is considered "albanophone" by the Italians and the people there claim Albanian descent, though are likely mixed. Today, Himariots are considered the biggest descendants of the Stradioti, in the 16th century, when John Kastrioti, son of George, rebelled a final time against the Sultan, his army was largely made up of Himariots. After he finally gave in and left Albania, those who settled in Italy thatnks to John, were recorded as Albanians.

I have shown that I dont claim anything from the Arvanities, but I cant help but thin that in many occasions, people trying to prove the Arvnities as somehow Albanized individuals, do it simply for purity purposes. Similarly, I find many southern Albanians, including me in the past, deny any possibility of having Albanized Greeks.


Edited by Iskender Bey ALBO
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2005 at 08:18
in greek: arvanites=arvani+tis+notias=Albanians from the south of balkans
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  Quote Alkiviades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2005 at 09:17
Now this has to be the most impressive linguistic salto mortale I've ever seen! 

Nice try, but obviously completely wrong. Find something more convincing.

P.S. I am the guy who says that Arvanites have also Albanian blood, remember. But your etymology is ridiculous.
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  Quote TheodoreFelix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2005 at 10:45
I think he was joking. I found it funny.
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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2005 at 10:54
n the book The Late Medieval Balkans by John Fine he writes:

"Greek was undergoing evolution at the time with the b coming to be pronounced as a v."


Well this is actually incorrect and based on the Erasmic theory of pronounciation..
The basis for this "theory" (Erasmian)  is that words adopted by the Latin language were spelled differently from the way they were pronounced in Hellinic.
This was actually introduced as an "easy to learn guide" but does not represent neither ancient nor new testament Hellinic. It is interesting to note that even though it has the name of Erasmus he in his teachings didn't use this pronounciation...

If you're interested here's a article on the pronounciation issue:
LINK
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  Quote Alkiviades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2005 at 15:22
Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO

I think he was joking. I found it funny.


If that's the case then...

I found it funny also, but for different reasons
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  Quote TheodoreFelix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Oct-2005 at 19:39
Well this is actually incorrect and based on the Erasmic theory of pronounciation..
The basis for this "theory" (Erasmian) is that words adopted by the Latin language were spelled differently from the way they were pronounced in Hellinic.


Well this seems to go perfectly with the situation here. Outside, latin based, writing have used the words Arbanese, while the Albanian soldiers gathered at Durres in Ana Comnenas writing state Arbanities and by the slavs, Arbanase. Yet its only the Greek version that changes this to a V to make the Arvanities.
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  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 06:33

Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO

Many were then taken by Venetians and resettled in Greece with other Greeks who left Greece. because of this we have the city of Greci today in southern Italy. Though the name, today the town is considered "albanophone" by the Italians and the people there claim Albanian descent, though are likely mixed. Today, Himariots are considered the biggest descendants of the Stradioti, in the 16th century, when John Kastrioti, son of George, rebelled a final time against the Sultan, his army was largely made up of Himariots. After he finally gave in and left Albania, those who settled in Italy thatnks to John, were recorded as Albanians.

That's ridiculous. The Greeks of southern Italy became Albanians or Albanophones all of a sudden? They speak their unique greek dialect, I've seen, heared and read about them some much stuff and they are proud of being Greeks and try so hard to preserve the greek culture in Italy attending greek schools.  

Ancient Greeks considered Illyrians kinda relatives.

"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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  Quote TheodoreFelix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 11:46
That's ridiculous. The Greeks of southern Italy became Albanians or Albanophones all of a sudden? They speak their unique greek dialect, I've seen, heared and read about them some much stuff and they are proud of being Greeks and try so hard to preserve the greek culture in Italy attending greek schools.


Your thinking of different people. Your talking about the ancient ones, Im talking about ones that left to Italy as Stradioti mercenaries, most Byzantine greeks started settling in southern Italy but then went up to the north in cities like Venice and other rich ones. There are topics in the enlightenment era forum that deals with this. You can also go to the online page for the city of Greci here. Its interesting that this city is considered albanophone since the name derives from the Italian word for Greece, which is Grecia. It goes very well with what the articles there mentioned.
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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 14:23


I know of some 15-20 villages and some 70.000 people in the region of Salentino and Bovesia that speak 'Grekianika' or 'Griko' as oftenly seen.. A dialect that is directly connected to the Dorian dialect.. while there are some theories suggesting a Byzantine 'migration' the obvious and excessive Dorian linguistic elements seen in this language/dialect simply don't support a later but a much older 'migration' towards S.Italy..

This dialect/language and the people that speak it have actually been recognized by the Italian Parliament as a separate ethnicity and the teaching of their language is actually supported.
We even find yearly seminars for the tutors of the existing Grekianic schools in Salentine, Lecce and Calabria..

As for the Albanian speakers you're talking about, they do exist but since we're talking about S.Italy we find them in the province of Catanzaro, in the municipality of Caraffa to be exact..


Edited by Phallanx
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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  Quote TheodoreFelix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2005 at 16:22
Actually Catanzaro is but one of the many areas in Calabria where the Arberesh are in. There are also a coouple in Sicily, Campania(Where the Greci village is)

This site here goes into them in detail. Go to where it says "migracioni" and it will show all the areas. You can click on each areas to see them in detail.

Oh and I just saw the link you provided in the last post. thank you.

Edited by Iskender Bey ALBO
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  Quote TheodoreFelix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2005 at 15:03
The Illyrian=Albanian connection is a very nice fairy tale if you don't look into the details. If you do, the truth unveils and you find yourself with a very empty shell of an hypothesis.


Actually, the theory proposed by Serb "scholars" or the stuff here is considered so. Like it or not, the vast vast majority of scholars accepts either this or some other indigenous origin, whether or not Illyrian or Thraco-Dacian, or Thraco-Illyrian. The point is, that the myth is in the idea that all of the sudden we made the move from one point of the world to the other, that we are not indigenous, with relation to the last two millenia's is the one considered false.
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  Quote Paulo Henrique Granafei Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 00:07
Folks, I don´t have time to check this informations in English sources now, but at "Enciclopedia Mirador" 1976 edition, written in Portuguese, published by Britannica Encyclopaedia, there is a hypothetical ethymology beside the already mentioned Latim "Alba": the Celtic "Alp", that means "high" or "height". The scottish origin for Albanians is probably a mistake resulting for the use of the same term to designate two different, far and unrelated regions with similar topographic characteristics. Geoffrey of Monmouth, who is the most ancient surviving writing to tell a whole story about king Arthur, calling him by that name - instead of Ambrosius Arelianus, for example - refers to Scotland as Albania. Perhaps the same origin applies to the Caucasian Albania; or maybe all three came from "alba" in a reference to the snow on the heights...
I hope it will be helpful for you. Greetings.
 

Edited by Paulo Henrique Granafei
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  Quote perikles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 06:52
Arvatinets was Greek people living in southern region of the country now called Albania. THei fight next to Greek army. They come in Greece and because they come from southern Albania they called that way. You can find amusing anything you want. I find realy amusent the try of the Albanians to try to persuade themselves that we have the same roots. After all that is obvious. We look like very much. In Athens you can't distinguish if someone is Albanian or Greek. And also our past and present. Greece and Albania had almost the same development.
This is amusement.
    

Edited by perikles - 19-Sep-2006 at 06:53
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  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 13:56
Originally posted by perikles

Arvatinets was Greek people living in southern region of the country now called Albania. THei fight next to Greek army. They come in Greece and because they come from southern Albania they called that way. You can find amusing anything you want. I find realy amusent the try of the Albanians to try to persuade themselves that we have the same roots. After all that is obvious. We look like very much. In Athens you can't distinguish if someone is Albanian or Greek. And also our past and present. Greece and Albania had almost the same development.
This is amusement.
    
 
There are other, more recent discussions on the arvanites.
But
First you have to learn that they are called arvanites, not arvatinets
Second you have to tell me why these greeks from southern albania still speak albanian after 7 centuries?Now they live in the middle of the greece, for centuries, why would they preserve their language and costumes if they werent theirs?
Third, your irony is really funny. It is true, that is amusement, you are entertaining many of us
Fourth, who told you that this people in the beginning were greek, or you just know that because you are from Janina and your gran-mother told you
Fifth, where is your historical data, your scientific quota?
And sixth, please, do us a favor, go and learn english, it is really difficult to understand your complicated thoughts (how old are you)
Prej heshtjes...!
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  Quote perikles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 03:18
what is your level of english?
you have any degree? If you don't understand maybe you should go and learn.
I am writing fast because i am in work.
Secondly the arvanites was a typing error.

Your behaviour is unacceptable. You are always insulting people. I guess is something wrong with you. I won't write again in that thread. I will open a new one with same origin of Maorin tribe and Albanians. It is exactly the same with this thread. No common roots.
The only people they speak albanian in Greece are the albanians refuges. I haven't start irony. You are right i shouldn't continue with ironi. An Greek ancient saying is " If a mule kicks you and you kick it back that makes you a mule also" so this is my final post in this topic.

ps. I have saved all your posts in order to read it have a good time.THANK YOU
    
    

Edited by perikles - 20-Sep-2006 at 03:19
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  Quote arnauta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2011 at 03:22
Albanians are Illyrians with no relations to Greeks. Greeks are Near Eastern/SubSahara peoples. History supports this. All other points of view are just that points of view, not historical facts.
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  Quote Pyrros the Eagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2015 at 14:44
ShqIPERIA-IPERIA
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  Quote Pyrros the Eagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2015 at 15:58
Sorry Guys my comment was a bit dry so I will elaborate it further. I am fascinated with ancient history starting with summerian empire, minnoans, hellens and roman one. I got a masters degree in UK and at the same time I am lucky to be far from the madness that has gripped the Balkan countries finding who is who and manipulating the history as they go along. Here in UK I have been called greek, albanian or southern italian, but I know that I am a vlach from Epirus and damned a proud of it. Now about the name of Albania (Shqipe-Eagle and Iperia-Epirus) can it be Eagle of Epirus? 
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