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Are Albanians related to Greeks?

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Phallanx View Drop Down
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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Are Albanians related to Greeks?
    Posted: 15-Feb-2005 at 19:41
There are actually several theories about the origin of the Albanians.

Actually it wasn't the Ottomans that converted the Albanians of Caucasus to Islam and later used them as shock troops but the Arabs in the 7th cent.

With the coming of the Arabs, they converted the Albanians in the 8th century to Islam. But meanwhile, at the time, the Arabs were waging campaigns in Sicily, dividing it into two parts, (hence there was the Kingdom of the two Sicilies). In order to populate their part of Sicily, the Arabs brought with them (Albanians) from the Caucasus. To this day, their descendants live in Sicily.

Then in 1042, the Byzantine Empire attacked the young Serbian state after having defeated the Arabs in Sicily and having brought the Sicilian Albanians under their command and Christianizing them. The leader of the Byzantines who led the Albanians was named Georgios Maniakos. Maniakos brought Albanian mercenaries from Sicily to fight the Serbs and they settled in two waves in modern day Albania, first the mercenaries came, and then came the women and children. After the defeat of Maniakos, the Byzantines would not let the Albanians return, thus the Albanians requested that the Serbs let them stay on the land. They settled under mount Raban and the city of Berat and from this, the Serbs called them "Rabanasi" or "Arbanasi". The city of Berat was known as Belgrad also, before the Albanians came to settle there. They mostly tended sheep and cattle and lent themselves out to Serbian nobles as brave soldiers.

Avery interesting fact is that the Chechen language is similar to Albanian. They both have similar grammar and similar sounds such as SQ, PSHQ, which are not common in any IE languages, but are very common in Caucasus languages like Chechenian.

Some, of a long list of examples:
CHECHENIA=ICHQERIA
ALBANIA=SHQIPTERIA
Chechen=aakharkho,Albanian=katundar,English=peasan t
Chechen=alsamoo,Albanian=me shume,English=more
Chechen=aagan,Albanian=eker,English=wild
Of course you'd need to know the languages in order to understand the sound similarity, since spelling doesn't really help.

These are just a few, of the many identically named towns, cities and villages in Albania and the Caucasus :

Albo-Arnauti -Caucasus- Arnauti
(Turks and Balkan peoples call Albanians by this name; likely from arch. Turk: Arran)
Albo-Bushati - Caucasus-Bushati (also the name of an Albanian tribe)
Albo-Baboti - Caucasus-Baboti
Albo-Baka -Caucasus-Bako
Albo-Ballagati - Caucasus-Balagati
Albo-Ballaj,Balli - Caucasus- Bali
Albo-Bashkimi - Caucasus-Bashkoi
Albo-Bathore- Caucasus- Batharia
Albo-Bater- Caucasus- Bataris
Albo-Geg - Caucasus-Gegi, Gegeni, Geguti (Term used by Albanians in their language to denote their brethre north of the Shkumbi R.)
Albo-Demir Kapia - Caucasus-Demir Kapia (Turkish term: "iron gates"; term by which Turks refered to the Caspian Sea or arch: Albanian Sea)
Albo-Kish, Kisha... - Caucasus-Kish (Eight different toponyms in Albania begin with "kish")
Albo-Kurata,Kuratem,Kurateni(villages)-Caucasus-Kura (river) (Nine different toponyms in Albania begin with "Kura")
Albo-Luginasi - Caucasus-Lugini
Albo-Rusani - Caucasus-Rusian
Albo-Sheshani, Shoshani, Shashani - Caucasus-Shashani
Albo-Sheshaj, Sheshi - Caucasus-Sheshleti
Albo-Skalla - Caucasus-Skaleri
Albo-Shiptari Shipyaki, Shkhepa, - Caucasus-Shkepi
Albo-Shkoder - Caucasus-Shkeder, Shked, Shkoda
Albo-Shekulli - Caucasus-Shekouli
Albo-Skuraj - Caucasus-Skuria

The Albanian language is totally alien to Illyrian (based on the Messapic inscriptions found)

Illyrian-"alt"= (a stream) Albo -"LUMΛ, RRYMΛ, CURRIL, RRΛKE, PΛRRUA, NIVEL"
Illyrian-"barba"= (a swamp) Albo -"MOΗAL"
Illyrian-"bra"= (brother) Albo-VΛLLA, SHOK
Illyrian-"mag"= (great) Albo- FAMSHΛM, KRYESOR, FISNIK, SHKΛLQYER
Illyrian-"brisa"= (grapes) Albo-RRUSH
Illyrian-"metu"=(between) Albo-MES,NDΛRMJET
Illyrian-"oseriates"=(lake) Albo-LIQEN, PELLG
Illyrian-"plo"=(strong) Albo-FORTΛ, THANTΛ
Illyrian-"rinos"=(cloud) Albo-HIJE, RE, TUFΛ
Illyrian-"sybina"=(a spear) Albo-SHTIZΛ
Illyrian-"teuta"=(a tribe/people) Albo-FIS, KLAN/ POPULL, KOMBΛSI, GJINDE
Illyrian-"ves"=(kind) Albo-MIRΛ, DASHUR, SJELLSHΛM

Now if we look at whatsome linguists have said, we once again see that the possibility of Albanians being connected to Illyria is "slim"

1. The Illyrian toponyms known from antiquity, e.g. Shkφder from the ancient Scodra (Livius), Tomor from Tomarus (Strabo, Pliny, etc.), have not been directly inherited in Albanian: the contemporary forms of these names do not correspond to the phonetic laws of Albanian. The same also applies to the ancient toponyms of Latin origin in this region.

2. The most ancient loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic form of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Romanian, and not of western Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore, did not take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.
(this is from another theory that proves your origin to be somewhere in Carpathia)

3. The Adriatic coast was not part of the primitive home of the Albanians, because the maritime terminology of Albanian is not their own, but is borrowed from different languages.

4. Another indication against local Albanian origin is the insignificant number of ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian. If the primitive home of the Albanians had been Albania itself, then the Albanian language would have to have many more ancient Greek loanwords.

5.The old home of the Albanians must have been near to that of the proto-Romanians. The oldest Latin elements in Albanian come from proto-Romanians, i.e. eastern Balkan Latin, and not from Dalmatian, western Balkan Latin that was spoken in Illyria. Cf. the phonetic development of the following words:
Vulgar Latin caballum 'horse' Rum. cal, Alb. kal
Vulgar Latin cubitum 'elbow' Rum. cot. Alb. kut
Vulgar Latin lucta 'struggle, fight' Rum. lupt, Arum. luft, Alb. luftλ

Sources :
H. Kronasser, Zum Stand der Illyristik (Linguistique Balkanique, IV, 1962, pp. 5 ff.); R. Katicic', 'Namengebiete im rφmischen Dalmatian" (Die Sprache, X, Vienna, 1964, pp. 23 ff.); id., Illyrii proprie dicti (iva Antika, Skopje, XIII/XIV, 1964, pp. 87 ff.); id., 'Suvremena istraivanja o jeziku starosjedilaca ilirskih provincija' (Nauno društvo SR Bosne i Hercegovine, IV, Sarajevo, 1964, pp. 9 ff.); G. Alfφldy, 'Die Namengebung der Urbevφlkerung der rφmischen Provinz Dalmatia (Beitrδge zur Namenforschung, 15, Heidelberg, 1964, pp. 54 ff).

Sorry bout the long post.

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Sharrukin View Drop Down
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2005 at 00:55

I've been trying to find documentation on the so-called Ottoman "importation" of Caucasian Albanians but with no luck.  Instead I found this from the History Channel Forums:

http://boards.historychannel.com/thread.jspa?threadID=100034 380&tstart=0&start=-1

This theory seems to make more sense.  The Armenians seemed to have absorbed Caucasian Albania by the 7th century and the name no longer is extant even to the present day in the region.  Then the western Balkan Albanians are in evidence by the 15th century.  If in the period between these dates the name was no longer extant, how could Ottomans supposedly imported "Albanians"?. 

Caution however is warranted.  The book that he quotes from, I have, and that quote is taken out of context.  Just after that sentence he writes "Nor should one be less cautious towards the authenticity of the vivid protrayals of defeated Illyrians by Roman sculptors..."  In other words the anthropological and artistic portrayals of Illyrians are inconclusive.  On the other hand he does describe continuity of archaeological evidence down to the appearance of the "Arbanites" in the 11th century.  He also stresses that the name Albanian in the eastern Balkans is older than the name Shqiper- which only occurrs in the wake of the Ottoman invasions of the Balkans in the 15th century. 

 

 

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Aristoteles View Drop Down
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  Quote Aristoteles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2005 at 00:26

Albanian language made its first formal appearance in the 1500s. The Albanian national identity was "created" by the same time.

There is little doubt that the Osmanli "imported" a large mass of Caucasian Albanian, as loyal subjects and mercenaries into the Balkans. And, yes, they settled them in the land known now as Albania or "Shqiperia" as its inhabitants call it.

But it would be not very accurate to attribute the ethnogenesis of the Albanian people solely to those Caucasian Albanian. Sure they added to the mix, but they were not the only ones.

I wouldn't go as far as to claim that the Albanians are indeed Illyrians (as they claim, in order to facilitate the very Balkanic "I was here before you") moreso they are a mixture of various elements - among these of course Illyric, but also Latin, Thracic, Slavic, Greek, Turkic and certainly the Albanians of Caucasus.

On a related topic, there seems to be a certain controversy as to where this name (Albania) comes from. Several theories:

- Latin word for "white" (Alba)

- Tribe of Albi or Alvoi or Alvanoi (a small and rather insignificant mountainous Illyrian tribe, first recorded by Greek geographers in the 2nd century AD).

- The Caucasian Albanians (and that begs for another answer: where did they get the "Albanian" name themselves...)

Trying to educate the ignorant, leads only to frustration
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Sharrukin View Drop Down
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  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2005 at 23:27
While it is true that there was in fact an "Albania" in the Caucasus during Hellenistic and Roman times, these Caucasian Albanians spoke a Caucasian language related to Lezgian.  The language of the present-day Udis seems to be the modern descendant of ancient Albanian.  The language of the Balkan Albanians however, is an IE language.  IE languages are inflective languages while Caucasian languages are agglutinative. 
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  Quote Bosnjo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2005 at 20:47

Some Serbian Nationalist claim that Albanians were imported by the Osmans from the Caucasus to the Balkan Peninsula.

 

I am heavely armed, entirely sick and extremly nationalistic.
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