Afghan and paskastani hisory I want to know more

http://www.caorc.org/hollings/reports/afghan_borders/pages/45.htm

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Posted: 31-Aug-2007 at 18:25

Originally posted by nick

Over 75% of Pakistani culture is almost same as Indic Muslim culture or I shell say Hindu-Muslims, as they used to be called

before 1947. From the Punjabi wedding to Food to their celebration of Eid, to even Passand (Kit flying day in mid spiring)

The Others like Minoritiy Pashtu speakers have a culture far different from those of Punjabis/Sindhis. Going to those areas

which are internationally part of Pakistani map, feels like being in Afghanistan. From their food to their customs, to their

music, to their dances, to their celebrations.

Language:

North-Western Pakistan speak a different langauge, more like Awestian dialect, where as rest of Pakistanis speak Urdu which

is same as Hindi which roots itself to sanskirti.

The North Western People of so called Pakistan have a different way of looking at this state called "Pakistan" they are

tribal people like Afghanistan but does not want any troops or any men other than their own race/People standing with weapon.

Most of them are nationalist who doesn't like the name Pakistan, and some modenr Pashtu speakers respect the name for the

sake of Islam. Now I would not far more than what i have said but you do the research.

Dear nick,
I would like to present you with what I know (which is little compared to your knowledge) about Pakistan.
The word PAK in Pakistan stands for Punjab Afghanistan Kashmir, and you know that uptill 1893 there was no line/border by the

name of Durand line, in order to save their intereset and save the shame of twice defeat, the Britain implemented the best

policy of their, which is of Divide and Rule.
They put a treaty with the Amir of Afghanistan that in order to stop any further trouble or war between Afghanistan and

Britain India there shall be a remote independent buffer state where both countries agreed on giving some of their land to

this buffer state, and that was when Afghanistan lost the control of now NWFP and Balochestan in Pakistan and the.

In 1947 once again the Britain came to face a shamefull defeat in their politics and regional control and again they

implemented the Divide and Rule theory in order to never allow the Indian contenent be peacefull and they again made a KIND

of buffer state over which in the future both Afghanistan and India will fight, and that's what today we see, Afghanistan

asks for its land and India never truely accepted Pakistan a saperete country.

As far as the people of Pakistan is concerned, as I have mentioned what PAK stands for so mostly the people of Pakistan is of

Afghan origin and the Punjabis and Sindhis who are of western Indian or you could say of Indus civilization origin (pre-

Islamic times), before the division were mostly converted to Islam and that's why the overall population of Pakistan makes

the third largest Muslim population.

As mentioned before by you and other poster, that the wester Pakistan is influenced by the Afghan culture, language and

custom as they are of no different origin and ethnicity and once you are in Balochestan or NWFP you won't fell any difference

between there and Afghanistan.

Originally posted by nick

There are 2 large ethnic tribes in Afghanistan. Which also falls into NWFP and Balochistan, Abadalite, and Ghilzais or

Khalji. total population of two large tribes have said to occupy 70% of Afghanistan's Population.

The Ghilzais are mainly in the South from Sistan-Herat-Kandahar-Quetta-Paktika, they are the same tribe who went into Europe

fighting their way with Medes and Assyrians ie the Aryan tribe of Sakas. The Other Ethnic tribe is Abadalite, Which is much

larger than Ghilzais, and Abadalite are the same Hephadalites which was mentioned in english as Eastern Iranians. The Fact

that they also live isIranian borders of Khorasan, in reality they are Aryans, not Iranian, but its not to say there are no

Abadalite in Khorasan of Iran, mainly sunnis. There is one tribe of NWFP which doesn't fit well with both of these Tribes and

that's Apdradis, their root is not known some say they are mixed others say they were outsiders who came into afghan land,

they makup 20% of NWFP, and there are also other tribes in the area who speaks pashtu but are not Afghan by origin.

Dear as far as your information about the two tribes is concerned I would like to add on some more in order to give more

information to Surmount.

The first tribe of whom you speak is of Ghilzai, Ghalji (localy known) or Khilji (the Indian version of Ghalji), they are

mainly the second large tribe of Pashtuns, having Iranized Turkic origin meaning they are mainly of Turkic origin.
They came to prominence after Mirwais Khan Hotak revolted against the Persian reign in Kandahar and it was the Ghaljis who

established the Delhi Sultanet, they are known as the ghazi tribe meaning they were and are mostly among the fighters and

generals of the Pashtuns.

The second tribe the Abdalis or Duranis, came to prominence when Ahmad Shah Abdali (known localy as Ahmad Shah Baba) stood

against the Persian empire and established a new country named Afghanistan. He went on to conquering today's entire

Afghaistan, NWFP Balochestan Kashmir Punjab of today's Pakistan, Punjab Kashmir of today's India and the entire Khorasan

province of Iran.

The origin of Abdalis is the most controversial think to speak of, there are several conceptions where some relate them to

decent from Alexander the Great (Mostly Afridis, Sadozais and Khattaks are known to be decedent of Alexander the Great), some

relate them to the Aryan origin and the most controversial one is relating them or you could say the entire Pashtun ethnic to

the Israelites where some of the local Pashtun history text books say that as the Assyrian Empire defeated the Kingdom of

Israel, there were ten lost tribes amongst whom one is of today's Pashtuns, even some DNA test were carried out to confirmed

it and showed up no official result but locals mostly say that those tests attested the claims and showed that Pashtuns were

of Israel origin or Bani Israel as known localy.

For more about it visit the link.

Any way this sect of Pashtuns are the most educated and well ranked amongst the Pashtuns, up till August 2007 the true blood

decedent of Ahmad Shah Abdali was represented by Kind Zahir Shah (who was of Mohammadzai sub sect of Durrani).
The current President of Afghanistan Mr. Hamid Karzai is also a Durrani pashtun of Popalzai sub sect.

Its not a Persian dialect. Persian is a Safivadi langauge is in fact itself a dialect of Dari. Dari was first not

Persian.

That's totaly correct and is the mistake that most people do again and again.
Dari has a deaper past than the Persian language, it was the language of Zoroastrians in the pre-Islamic greater Persian

empire. As the time passed on it faded out and persian faded in. Today's Afghanistan's and Tajikistan's Dari is different

than of that time's but is said that mostly is same to Dari of Zoroastrains.

The Only languages close to Persian is Hazaragi and the 25% Shias of Herat whom were converted by the Safivads and

controlled by the Safivads for some years.

Well that is a controversial point, as Hazaragi is much connected to Mangolian languages, specially the Jaghuri Hazaragi is

said to be derived from Mangolian language.

And what about the people from Afghanistan? Who do they stem from or what do they consider themselves to be?

Today's Afghnistan consist of Pashtuns (65-67%), Tajiks (10-15%), Hazaras (10%), Uzbaks (9%),rest are Balochs, Aimaq,

Turkmen, Nooristani, Qazalbash, Pashai and other minor ethnics like Arabs, Gujars and more.

Edited by Gharanai - 31-Aug-2007 at 18:39

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Posted: 01-Sep-2007 at 02:56

Gharani marra,

Actually Afghanistan gained territory as a result of the Durant Line, NWFP was lost to the Sikhs, Balochistan was lost back in the 1850's.

Afghan Territory 1890

Durant Line 1893

http://www.caorc.org/hollings/reports/afghan_borders/pages/46.htm

Gharanai

http://www.caorc.org/hollings/reports/afghan_borders/pages/45.htm

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Posted: 01-Sep-2007 at 09:24

Originally posted by Sparten

Gharani marra,

Actually Afghanistan gained territory as a result of the Durant Line, NWFP was lost to the Sikhs, Balochistan was lost back in the 1850's.

Afghan Territory 1890

Durant Line 1893

http://www.caorc.org/hollings/reports/afghan_borders/pages/46.htm

First of all thanks for the links to the maps has I had looked for those maps since long besides I don't see any gain to Afghan side from 1890 to 1893.

And about balochestan, you are right, the Afghans lost upper hand over the region but it never still had some rule im its control, the same comes for NWFP.

In 1919 when Amir Ghazi Amanullah Khan defeated the Britains for the third time, he could had easily captured back the region that belonged to Afghanistan as the Britains were on a run and having trouble controling the India itself.

But deu to interference of other countries and due to some agents (you could call them) inside his kingdom he was stopped doing it which is regreated up till today.

The second time when Afghans got an appotunity was in 1971-2 when Pakistan had lost easter part (now Bangladesh) and had to deploy his forces to the eastern borders of it to stop any further Indian intrusion.

Late. King Zahir Shah was asked by his policy makers, nationalists and people on the other side of border (Pashtunkhwa demanders) to invade Pakistan and get the region that belonged to Afghanistan.

King Zahir Shah refused the ask, and ensured Pakistan that while a muslim brother country is facing troubles, we are not going to cause any further trouble and declared his full support to control the border of his side.

In the mean time before 1971 war in 1963 Prime minister Mohammad Daud Khan ordered the invasion of Pakistan to get back the lands that belongs to Afghans. In next 24 hours Afghan First Infantry forces crossed the border and invaded Pakistan, in the mean time the Kind called off the invassion fearing an isolation from the international relations as United Nations and Iran feared that the Afghans will capture Karachi and will get a path to the Persian Gulf and the regional power will go to the benefit of Russia as they supported the prime minister.

The king calling off the invasion then forcefully called the resignation of Prime minister and that was the case that cost him his trone and was displaced in 1973 by Mohammad Daud Khan.

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Posted: 01-Sep-2007 at 11:11

That was in 1961. The Afghans attacked across the intl border in Bajuar. The attack was in 3 seperate columns. The PAF counter attacked within 35 mins and the Afghan forces were pinned down and then were defeated in a counter attack. At that time we moved 1 Armoured Div from Nowshera to Peshawar on the main GT Road. Lt Gen Habibullah Khattack the CGS, wanted to launch a two pronged assualt across the border, along the axis Kandahar-Ghazni-Kabul, Ayub Khan refused and sent him on leave.

In both the '65 and '71 war we had to keep two whole divisions on the western border, we had the old 6 div and the now defunct Zulu Group in '65 and 7 and 33 Div in '71. So the Afghanis never had a chance, it was not for a lack of wanting that they kept out in the wars.

Gharanai

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Posted: 01-Sep-2007 at 15:07

Originally posted by Sparten

That was in 1961. The Afghans attacked across the intl border in Bajuar. The attack was in 3 seperate columns. The PAF counter attacked within 35 mins and the Afghan forces were pinned down and then were defeated in a counter attack. At that time we moved 1 Armoured Div from Nowshera to Peshawar on the main GT Road. Lt Gen Habibullah Khattack the CGS, wanted to launch a two pronged assualt across the border, along the axis Kandahar-Ghazni-Kabul, Ayub Khan refused and sent him on leave.

Well, I didn't know anything about Gen. Habibullah Khattack and it's nice to know.

On the other had what do you think if the Afghans had attacked in '71 would the 7th and 33rd Divs able to stop them and defeand while the entire army of Pakistan couldn't subdue their one people back in east Pakistan. How about the internal rebellious Major Zia-ur-Rehman, just think if a war was broken between AFG and PK how many of rebellious pashtuns would be there...

Any way I guess we are moving away from the main topic and lets just leave it there for some other time, or if you want to keep it up I really like discussing.

Guests

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Posted: 01-Sep-2007 at 17:10

Hmm, the East Pakistan situation was v different. One we did not have our entire army, only the East Pak garrison.You had a place which was not geographically contigous to the rest of Pak. Secondly the rebellion is E pak was subdued by May 0f '71 then the Indians attacked (2 divs vs 12) and by December the collaspe came.

Against the Afghanis the thing would have been different, you would have had besides the 7 and 33 divs, formations from Multan (II Corps) and Northern Areas (Northern Areas Command) coming, the former was a heavy armor formation, not to mention our airforce would be there. Also since 1947 most of Afghanistan's grain has come from Pakistan, and then unlike '61 the army would be unlikely to stop until it had gone to Kabul and Kandahar.

As for the Pakhtun question, well I doubt that there would have been any rebellion, you need to remember that its been 150 years and the fact that the area was v prominent in the Pakistan Movement (the Khattack bros, Pir of Man ki Sharif etc) and that a lot of the army comes from NWFP and FATA. I would say more than 50 %.

Gharanai