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Study of Teeth Indicates Europeans More Asian

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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Study of Teeth Indicates Europeans More Asian
    Posted: 19-Aug-2007 at 18:28
With some of the more popular threads dealing with human origins this is quite interesting.
 
 
Origins of Europeans: The Teeth tell the tale

By: RANDOLPH E. SCHMID - AP Science Writer

WASHINGTON -- Early human-like residents of Europe may have arrived out of Asia, rather than just Africa.

An international team of researchers reports in Monday's online edition of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences that Asians appear to have played a larger part in the settlement of Europe than did Africans.

The team led by Maria Martinon-Torres of the National Center for the Investigation of Human Evolution, in Burgos, Spain, reached that conclusion after analyzing more than 5,000 fossil teeth from early hominins, an early form of human predecessors.

After studying ancient teeth from Africa, Asia and Europe, the researchers report that early European populations had more Asian features than African ones.

That conclusion also supports the theory that the development of the genus Homo -- modern humans are Homo sapiens -- occurred both in Africa and Asia.

The teeth studied were from the genera Homo and the earlier Australopithecus.

"The history of human populations in Eurasia may not have been the result of a few high-impact replacement waves of dispersals from Africa, but a much more complex puzzle of dispersals," Martinon-Torres' team wrote.

The differences in tooth formation, dimensions and shapes in Europe and Asia and that of Africa suggest separate evolutionary courses for a long period, they said.

That doesn't mean there was no genetic flow between Africa and Eurasia, but rather that the Eurasians were probably descendants of an ancient out-of-Africa exodus, they said.

Milford Wolpoff, an anthropologist at the University of Michigan, noted that dental evidence is always difficult to work with and said this research team did "a very good job."

The idea that human evolution involved small and relatively isolated populations for much of its history, with a migration out of Africa and other migrations between continents, "is in concordance with the interpretations of paleoanthropologists," he said.

"It may be in different languages, but we are singing the same song," said Wolpoff, who was not part of the research team.

The research was supported by the Spanish Ministry of Science and Education, Fundacion Caja Madrid, Fundacion Atapuerca, Fundacion Duques de Soria and the Georgian National Museum.

On the Net:

Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences: http://www.pnas.org

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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2007 at 20:38
I was just saying on another thread I believe this. The "Flores man" from a remote island in Indonesia, is pictured as being a hobbit, but there were other types on other islands that haven't been found yet. They had to spread out from their original island homes because there wasn't enough room and they lived in the "ring of fire" a volcanic hotspot.

As for the evidence, some authorities in the recent past have refused to share this information. The out of African theories to my mind always have needed more proof. Why migrate from a place where you are born with with plenty of room? A migratory race born to be always on the move  has a fear of being in confined places that built up over time. An original small island Asian type of human answers more questions in better ways. To my mind a stream of ancestral Asian type went into Africa and shared the neccessary genes that would become the basis of modern type humans.
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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2007 at 23:36
elenos,

The story said that the new findings work along with the out-of-Africa theory. The only kink, as I read the story, was that instead of moving from Africa directly to Europe, they went to Asia first :)

Also, keep in mind that they early humans were hunter gatherers, with emphasis on the gathering part. Moving around is a natural part of this kind of life. If there is less food here, they would keep looking somewhere else. Eventually one gets far this way.

Furthermore, lacking "space" only makes sense once agriculture started. Only when you are tied to the land cultivating food does space becomes an issue, since one wants to keep others away from taking the land that one is tendering. Then one does end up running out of space rather quickly.

The evidence for the out-of-Africa theory is that the oldest fossils found are found in Africa. If human evolved in other places, we would expect to find fossils somewhere else. Also, the fossil record supports evolution in Africa rather than other places.

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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2007 at 05:37
I know, hugostr, but the out of Asia theory has a lot going for it when thought of in a logical way. Hunter gatherers have only so much room before having to find ways to move on. The incentive is always has been there to build crafts. I have been on Asian islands and can say the chances of finding fossils so ancient is nil bearing in mind the the islands are of volcanic origin and erupt every so often. The Great Rift basin has been relatively stable allowing for a rich accumulation of early finds.
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 20:38
This theory coincides with Spencer Wells genographic study which claims the Cradle of Humanity was in Central Asia and from there, it dispersed into Europe and Asia.
 
 
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 23:00
Thank you Afghanan, never heard of Spencer Wells before, but can see his point of view. Out of Asia is not a new theory, but held for a couple of hundred years before Leakey came along. The newer African theory has been pushed in high places. No elected politician in the West would now dare to disagree, but they are not historians! Having all of mankind's genetic eggs in one very findable basket has proven a hot topic and gained more interest in what was formerly a very dull subject.
  
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2007 at 13:23
Elenos,
 
I think you misunderstood me.   Spencer Wells uses genes to discover the origins of man.  He does agree with the Out of Africa theory, and the oldest y-chromosome (paternal) lineage was found in Africa ( I believe he claimed it was approximately 40-79,000 years ago).  He uses this information to catolog mutations of those genes.   He follows these mutations around the world and puts them into historical context.  He does the same for maternal ancestry which is carried in the mitochondria of cells and also goes through mutations.  The oldest mutation of the MtDNA was found in Africa as well.
 
His research concluded Humanity spread out of Africa at around 40,000 years ago and that the Cradle of Humanity was Central Asia at about 30,000 years ago.  From there, it spread East into Asia, and West into Europe. 
 
I also participated in the study by donating buccal cells for the study.  My results are posted here:
 
 
Sorry about the confusion.
 
 


Edited by Afghanan - 17-Sep-2007 at 13:26
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2007 at 20:16

Afghanan, I have no misunderstanding of you and no confusion about the subject. I have read through Spencer Wells and I would say the man is bordering on being a just another Yankee fraud. Is that clear enough? His arguments are simplistic and nowhere near the standards one would expect for someone in his position.

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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2007 at 21:21
  I would say the man is bordering on being a just another Yankee fraud.
 
Oh yeah, well take this, Roo Herder!
 
 
 
A term to keep in mind, your going to hear a lot more of it in the next ten years.  Regional Continuity.   Wells' theory reads like a cut paste from the South Asian forum, and makes less sense.
 
 
 
 
two years ago, geneticists working in Sweden and Germany reported studying the mtDNA of 53 living people from around the world. Within this small sample, they found that Africans shared a characteristic sequence of mtDNA, and that everyone else carried at least some portion of that sequence in their cells. The research suggests that all living humans had their roots in Africa. But Thorne doesn't put much stock in this report. He thinks the conclusions are questionable because samples taken in Africa today could be from people whose ancestors were not African.


New tests ordered


When the first Neanderthal studies were published in 1997, Thorne had retired but at the request of the Aboriginal council, he still safeguarded the Mungo fossils. Because three more sophisticated dating technologies were now available, he ordered new tests on 13 of the individuals in his care, and the results gave him a shock.


Mungo Man was 60,000 years old


The ages came back first. Using the new technologies, his team found that the small-boned Mungo Lady and Mungo Man were actually 60,000 years old twice as old as anyone had guessed. Thorne saw these dates as a crushing blow to the Out-of-Africa theorists. No matter what his opponents said, there wasn't enough time on their 120,000 year clock for Homo sapiens to leave Africa, dash up to China, evolve from rugged Africans into small-framed Asians, invent boats, sail to Australia, march to the interior, get sick, and die. How much simpler everyone's life would be, he thought, if anthropologists could agree that some of the players in this drama had reached China 1.5 million years ago and continued to evolve there


mtDNA of same 13 individuals


After the dating, Gregory Adcock, a doctoral student in genetics at Australian National University, decided to check all 13 fossils for mtDNA. But first he set up stringent procedures to avoid contaminating the specimens and he alone handled the specimens. Once he'd perfected handling techniques, he drilled into each fossil and took a sample from the bone's interior, where no one could ever have touched it. Of more than 60 samples he analysed he reported ten of the 13 had yielded DNA.


His mtDNA signature was unique


The results were nothing less than remarkable: Among the 10 successful extractions was the world's oldest known human DNA plucked from none other than Mungo Man. (No DNA was recovered from Mungo Lady, perhaps because she had been cremated.) Mungo Man also appeared to mock the findings of previous scientists: His mtDNA signature did not match anyone's, living or fossil, on Earth. There was no evidence that he was genetically related to ancient Africans.

From The Bradshaw Foundation Homepage 

 


Edited by red clay - 17-Sep-2007 at 21:25
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  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2007 at 23:07
Originally posted by red clay

  I would say the man is bordering on being a just another Yankee fraud.
 
Oh yeah, well take this, Roo Herder!
 
 
 
A term to keep in mind, your going to hear a lot more of it in the next ten years.  Regional Continuity.   Wells' theory reads like a cut paste from the South Asian forum, and makes less sense.
 
 
 
 
two years ago, geneticists working in Sweden and Germany reported studying the mtDNA of 53 living people from around the world. Within this small sample, they found that Africans shared a characteristic sequence of mtDNA, and that everyone else carried at least some portion of that sequence in their cells. The research suggests that all living humans had their roots in Africa. But Thorne doesn't put much stock in this report. He thinks the conclusions are questionable because samples taken in Africa today could be from people whose ancestors were not African.


New tests ordered


When the first Neanderthal studies were published in 1997, Thorne had retired but at the request of the Aboriginal council, he still safeguarded the Mungo fossils. Because three more sophisticated dating technologies were now available, he ordered new tests on 13 of the individuals in his care, and the results gave him a shock.


Mungo Man was 60,000 years old


The ages came back first. Using the new technologies, his team found that the small-boned Mungo Lady and Mungo Man were actually 60,000 years old twice as old as anyone had guessed. Thorne saw these dates as a crushing blow to the Out-of-Africa theorists. No matter what his opponents said, there wasn't enough time on their 120,000 year clock for Homo sapiens to leave Africa, dash up to China, evolve from rugged Africans into small-framed Asians, invent boats, sail to Australia, march to the interior, get sick, and die. How much simpler everyone's life would be, he thought, if anthropologists could agree that some of the players in this drama had reached China 1.5 million years ago and continued to evolve there


mtDNA of same 13 individuals


After the dating, Gregory Adcock, a doctoral student in genetics at Australian National University, decided to check all 13 fossils for mtDNA. But first he set up stringent procedures to avoid contaminating the specimens and he alone handled the specimens. Once he'd perfected handling techniques, he drilled into each fossil and took a sample from the bone's interior, where no one could ever have touched it. Of more than 60 samples he analysed he reported ten of the 13 had yielded DNA.


His mtDNA signature was unique


The results were nothing less than remarkable: Among the 10 successful extractions was the world's oldest known human DNA plucked from none other than Mungo Man. (No DNA was recovered from Mungo Lady, perhaps because she had been cremated.) Mungo Man also appeared to mock the findings of previous scientists: His mtDNA signature did not match anyone's, living or fossil, on Earth. There was no evidence that he was genetically related to ancient Africans.

From The Bradshaw Foundation Homepage 

 
 
Red Clay,
 
You know you are comparing a "THEORY" to a "THEORY" there is no 'facts' because Science doesn't dwell on facts, but scientific methods of inquiry.
 
Actually The Genographic Project states clearly the first Y-chromosome haplogroup could be as old as 79,000 years. 
 
Spencer Wells NEVER claimed Africans colonied Australia by boats, they traced the genetic marker across Asia and found it in India.  The theory based on the Genographic research theorizes man followed the coastline, and thousands of years ago, followed it from Indonesia to Australia where they may have been a land bridge.  After the Ice Age ceased, the landbridge became submerged and the Aborigines remained in Australia.  This is explained in detail in "Journey of Man."
 
Also, The Genographic Project is still ongoing and won't end until way AFTER the study you quoted, so you can't say that this theory is invalid...frankly Well's research is backed by many international universities and scientific research centers across the world, including Asia and Europe.
 
 
 
 
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2007 at 23:21

Lol, Red Clay. Call me Kangaroo Jack leaping in from the outback! I agree with what you say because you are capable of looking at the question in a broader therefore more intelligent perspective. Im even skeptical of the Mungo fossils. When asked for evidence only so much is available for the finders have intellectual property and that seems to give them the right to overturn hundreds of years of sharing among the scientific community and the necessary independent tests not being made. 

When I say Yankee fraud Im referring to those fads, movements, fashions and cults that come flooding out of America to swamp the world with emotional fervor every so often. Everybody else is wrong and the true believers are right for a few years until the next one starts and you can bet your bottom dollar there will be a next one. I mean the rest of this fractious world is still reeling from the intelligent design theory that seems to state God was an American the world designed in America! I have nothing but admiration for those who think they can design the thoughts of others on such a grand scale but dont ask me, a serial disbeliever, to subscribe to any of that!

Im not denying an out of Africa theory but I count it among others. As you say an out of Asia trek makes damn good sense, those on the move could only get bigger and the pigmentation of the skin go either way. Then there are other never asked so lets not ask them questions like increasing bone density, color of hair, eyes and you name what else.

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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2007 at 23:47
His research concluded Humanity spread out of Africa at around 40,000 years ago and that the Cradle of Humanity was Central Asia at about 30,000 years ago.  From there, it spread East into Asia, and West into Europe. 
 
 
Mungo Man being 60,000 yo sort of throws a kink in his "conclusions".  MM's mtdna not matching any other downright ties it in knots.
 
Wells theory fails to take into consideration the Toba event which occurred approx 77,000 bce.
 
 
frankly Well's research is backed by many international universities and scientific research centers across the world, including Asia and Europe.
 
And rejected by just as many.
 
 
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Sep-2007 at 23:52
When I say Yankee fraud Im referring to those fads, movements, fashions and cults that come flooding out of America to swamp the world with emotional fervor every so often. Everybody else is wrong and the true believers are right for a few years until the next one starts
 
 
America hasn't any corner on that market my friend.
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2007 at 00:12
Originally posted by red clay

When I say Yankee fraud Im referring to those fads, movements, fashions and cults that come flooding out of America to swamp the world with emotional fervor every so often. Everybody else is wrong and the true believers are right for a few years until the next one starts
 
 America hasn't any corner on that market my friend.


I would answer that question  but must answer a knock at the door.  Is it a Morman, Seventh Day Adventist, Jehova's Witness? Why is it they all have American accents, and want me to buy printed in America magazines?
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  Quote JuMong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2007 at 21:39
About the Study,

I was reading articles on this subject which I found interesting.  The recent DNA study seems to indicate that DNA of Eurasian  people seems to be a lot newer and related than the DNA of Sub-Saharan African family, and the whole "out-of-Africa" theory is probably a too simplistic a model to describe the development of Eurasia.

So far, it seems clear that a group of human race did come out of Africa, but this group was then isolated  from Africa and began to develop and organize itself throughout the Eurasian continent.  The development of human race and culture seems related to isolation, and this seems to have played an important role in much of the diversity we see in Eurasian today.  




Edited by JuMong - 18-Sep-2007 at 21:43
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2007 at 21:57
I would answer that question  but must answer a knock at the door.  Is it a Morman, Seventh Day Adventist, Jehova's Witness? Why is it they all have American accents, and want me to buy printed in America magazines?
 
 
 
Oh please.  At least they aren't trying to "save you" like the ones that constantly bug us. Which makes me wonder.  In the US, neither of the three you mentioned are allowed by church doctrine to conduct sales of any kind.
 
 
 
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Sep-2007 at 23:32
Sometimes in Australia they ask you to take a magazine and then ask for a contribution. "to cover the costs" never thought about it really, they usually never get that far with me. However, when a pretty girl is at the door I am seduced into talking a bit longer. Perhaps it has been made illegal over here too, but I do remember that line.

But besides this Mickey Mouse stuff. I'm looking for an in-depth discussion on the merits of blood tests to tell the ages of mankind. I would be willing to go along with it but the conclusions seem too artificial, prearranged, politically correct and totally suspect. We are talking about a blonde headed male who graduated from the University of Texas, worked for a multinational drug company and who now at 33 is the world expert but he is known to make conflicting statements. Did he rise naturally or did the drug company seize the multi-billion dollar opportunity to promote their man? Look at the mess the American tobacco companies made of the world before being held to account for hiring scientists to write misleading information.
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  Quote feiying Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2009 at 09:54
Most Europeans have the Y chromosome Haplogroup R.  Most Asians have the Y chromosome Haplogroup O.  Africans are mostly Haplogroup E.  O and R came from a closer recent branch and it's obvious most Europeans and most Asians are closer to each other than they are to Africans.
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