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The Fall of the Southern Kingdoms

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  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Fall of the Southern Kingdoms
    Posted: 03-Feb-2006 at 06:03
The Byzantine and the bulgarian empire were only a shadow of their former glory.Even they were military powers no more the renesanse had just sterted in the balkans.Culturaly the balkans were one of the most develolpe regions of europe, as they always were
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  Quote Perseas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 18:44

Keep in mind, it was an era of constant fragmentation of Balkan states into smaller hegemonies and all these independent kings, despots and hegemons were seeking external help to handle their civil disputes.

 It comes to mind the case of John Kantakouzinos, one of the contenders of Byzantine throne who find it so easy to ally with Orhan and permit Ottomans this way to have a say in the internal affairs of Byzantine empire. It wasnt difficult for Ottomans to exploit this fact for their own favor.

Ottomans next step was to conquer Thrace, a keypoint who would later help them for their expansion to Europe. Of course this wasnt the only reason. Orthodox populations opposed with fanatism in any further penetration of Catholicism and were willing to do anything and ally with anyone to achieve it. Furthermore Ottomans didnt have to face any serious challenge in Balkans since most Balkan states were in decline, especially the once mighty Byzantine empire. 

A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.
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  Quote the Bulgarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 16:04

Originally posted by Sarmata

I think that if it wasn't for Ottoman occupation the southern balkan states may have flourished to a greater extent then the french, italian or Germans. Simply for the fact that Serbia was very close to absorbing the Byzantine empire, and Serbia already had a rich culture during these times. Perhaps if the other european countires contributed a bit more to driving the ottomans out of europe things could have been different, but perhaps they weren't interested in seeing a powerful empire of Serbia or any other Balkan empire, perhaps due to the Christian schism of West and East.

The Serb "Empire" was still a very small state compared to the main European powers and besides, it crumbled before the Ottomans ever set foot in Europe (well, technichally, one year after that). Neither of the Balkan states was politically powerfull, but culturaly the region flourished. The Ottoman conquest really screwed things around here.

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  Quote RomiosArktos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2006 at 06:55
The Ottomans brought nothing good to the peoples of the Balkan peninsula,Bulgarians,Serbs,Greeks,Wallachians,Moldav ians,Albanian Illyrians.If the rulers of these kingdoms had realised the danger, the darkness that was coming from the east then they would have formed a coalition to drive the Turks back from where they came.
Except from misery,corruption, slaughters nothing else came with the Turks.

NEVER AGAIN!

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  Quote Sarmata Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2006 at 17:44
I think that if it wasn't for Ottoman occupation the southern balkan states may have flourished to a greater extent then the french, italian or Germans. Simply for the fact that Serbia was very close to absorbing the Byzantine empire, and Serbia already had a rich culture during these times. Perhaps if the other european countires contributed a bit more to driving the ottomans out of europe things could have been different, but perhaps they weren't interested in seeing a powerful empire of Serbia or any other Balkan empire, perhaps due to the Christian schism of West and East.
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  Quote Asparuh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 16:58
I fully agree!
                                
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  Quote giani_82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2005 at 13:37
Some reforms were actually forced into the Ottoman Empire by the western countries. By the 19th century the empire was with more of a Middle Age's structure. This held down any Renaissance attempts at the region for quite a time and not until the emerging of a middle class in Bulgaria it was possible to have any revival, though some would argue it started earlier. The case with the Industrial Revolution however is not the same, as it is responsible for the creation of this middle class, that would propel the Renaissance in Bulgaria. Ottoman bureaucracy was slow, corrupt and ineffective which aided for some sultans to lose power over the ages to some fractions at the pallace. Later the empire was forced into contracts with England and France which dictated very poor trade opportunities for the Ottomans. All of these affected the life at the states that were under Ottoman rule.
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  Quote Berosus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2005 at 06:01
I thought the Ottomans indirectly helped the Italian Renaissance.  During the last years before the fall of Constantinople, several Byzantine scholars went to western Europe, and they took the surviving manuscripts of ancient Greece with them.  Most of them went to Italy, because it was the nearest Christian country, and because the Italians had just rediscovered classical literature, they couldn't get enough of the stuff.  In fact, Cosimo de Medici, the boss of Florence, held a seminar on Greek culture in 1439.  Because the Florentines knew a lot more about the ancient Romans than they did about the ancient Greeks, Cosimo invited Greek scholars to participate, and since Florence was the place to be in those days, many of them stayed afterwards.
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  Quote Jazz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 02:44
Originally posted by Thracian

can you imagine  if they did conquered Rome as well  

then both Christian capitals of Europe would have been done



True - things would have gotten interesting....

I think his intention was the Pope, who kept stirring up trouble (minor troubles mind you) in the wake of Constantinople's fall.

This thing is that he died pretty young (something to do with a digestive tract problem).  I think he was about 21 when he conquered Constantinople in 1453, that would extrapolate to about him being 48ish when he died.


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  Quote Thracian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Apr-2005 at 00:56

can you imagine  if they did conquered Rome as well  

then both Christian capitals of Europe would have been done

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  Quote Jazz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2005 at 02:25
The Ottomans were only in Italy for 1 year (1480-81) when they were contemplating making an attempt at Rome.  They landed at Taranto on the heel of Italy, but after gaining a foot-hold, the invasion was called the next year off due to the death of Mehmet the Conqueror.
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  Quote Thracian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2005 at 03:14
What happened when the ottomans got into other european territories such as parts of Italy perhaps? Were there any major attemps to get them out of europe?
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  Quote tzar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2005 at 12:32

Well about common languages Bulgarian and Serbian are closer than french and German

About religion-The whole districkt before to fall under Ottoman yoke was Orthodox

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  Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2005 at 05:59

Originally posted by Thracian

 Does all of the western Eu. belong to the Fench and Germans, for example?

 

Well, they certainly do try to control everything.

Wasn't there a thread about the pros and cons of belonging to an empire? 

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  Quote Thracian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2005 at 01:34
Originally posted by Riain

Is the balkans full of coal and iron to fuel an indistrial revolution? Is there a large body of well integrated people, like the French or the Germans, whose common language, religion and culture hold them together?

The balkans may not be a world leader for coal but they have enough of it.

What I am trying to say in this topic is basically that the the Ottoman empire ruined it all. This could have happened to any Eu. country if they were on the spot. If they never came the balkans would have flourished just like the rest of Europe.

Before they came the balkans were almost always simply Byz. empire, Bulgaria, Serbia, and a chunk of Hungry. The peninsula is big enough for all those 'different groups of people'. Does all of the western Eu. belong to the Fench and Germans, for example?

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  Quote Thracian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2005 at 00:57
Originally posted by Bosnjo

- During the Ottomans governed the Balkan, W-Europe has had a huge population decline due to the plague, and the recruiting of Children ended in 17 Century,

well they did. However let me put it this way: from I read, it said that at the end of the 14th cent. The English had around the same population as Bulgaria (2 mill). Then several hundred years later the English population had multiplied by 5, while Bulgaria's had stayed around the same due to the occupation.

 

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  Quote Riain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2005 at 18:23

Again the industrial revolution saw a shift in power from seaboard oceananic powers to big, well resourced continental land powers. The resources of vast continents could now be properly tapped with the use of the railway, thus the most powerful countries were big land powers, USA, Germany and Russia. Britain did well early with its coal, iron and exsisting wealth but was surpassed by the big 3. Italy has very few natural resources for an industrial economy, and even France was short on coal. As for Africa, Italy didn't get much out of there, and niether did anyone else, Africa isn't the richest of continents, its climate and geography make it constantly poor.

Is the balkans full of coal and iron to fuel an indistrial revolution? Is there a large body of well integrated people, like the French or the Germans, whose common language, religion and culture hold them together?

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  Quote Thracian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2005 at 15:08
Originally posted by Riain

The imperial age was due to the ocean sailing revolution, and benefitted the Atlantic seaboard powers at the expense of the older spice and silk routes through the Med, so these southern Kingdoms would have missed out there if nothing else.

I agree. But then what about Italy during the indust. rev. when Europe divided up all of Africa for territory and colinized it all. (except for Etheopia and Liberia)

Besides the Byzintines always had a strong navy and this whole horrible time period was after all, around 500 years.

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  Quote Riain Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2005 at 14:47
Wasn't the Renaisance rediscovering the learning of the ancients, and learning new things? If so these southern kingdoms had access to learning much earlier, via their contacts with the Byzantines who didn't have a long dark ages like Western Europe. These kingdom would have been far more aware of the East, which was superior to Western Europe,  during this era.
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  Quote Bosnjo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2005 at 07:05

It is more Gegoraphic, Balkan has a lot of Mountains, here is a map, and it is not bad populated.

 

http://ttevisual.com/images/2geography/img-ak-toc/%20Eur%20V III-1%20pop.jpg

- During the Ottomans governed the Balkan, W-Europe has had a huge population decline due to the plague, and the recruiting of Children ended in 17 Century, then muslims could also  join the Janissaries, because they wanted also huge career changes. The Janissaries were very powerfull they often  have revolted against the Emperor, and established they own governement.

 



Edited by Bosnjo
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