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African presence in America: Pre-columbus

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Almazy View Drop Down
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  Quote Almazy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: African presence in America: Pre-columbus
    Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 21:33
"Please Van Sertima and Clyde Winters are not reliable sources at all."

I DEFINETLY AGREE WITH THIS!! dont depend on Clyde winters. I mean the man talks about black vikings..... most scholars laugh at his work. but the sad thing is some people often use clyde winters as an example of "afrocentrism". but even Afrocentrist believe this guy is crazy.

btw pinguin why go on and on about how some written languages in west africa was created in the 20th? yes some WLs in parts of west africa were created at this time but there are many african WLs  that are Ancient.

now one thing I dont agree with is clyde winters saying that the olmecs were black and blah blah blah...

However it is possible that Malians may have traveled to the Americas.



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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 21:48
Originally posted by Almazy

....
btw pinguin why go on and on about how some written languages in west africa was created in the 20th? yes some WLs in parts of west africa were created at this time but there are many african WLs  that are Ancient.
 
I have studied the topic, and I least I am totally wrong (If so, correct me) there weren't aborigin writen languages in West Africa South of the Sahara.
 
Yes, we know that in coastal North Africa in Egypt and in East Africa down to Ethiopia there are writen languages since 3.000 years ago at least. However, crossing the Sahara there weren't any.
 
That's why the griot traditions existed in the first place. Writing in those regions started with the Muslim invasions in the Middle Ages.
 
By the way, that's just a cultural detail. Believe me or not, it is known in history that quite a few people invented writing... most of them copied from somebody else.
 
 
Originally posted by Almazy

....
However it is possible that Malians may have traveled to the Americas.
 
That's likely indeed. There are several histories of Muslim expeditions in from Spain to Mali of expeditions across the ocean. That's something one can't discount because Muslims of the Middle Ages had the technology to cross oceans. Now, Middle Ages Mali it was in the multicultural and international circuit of Muslim countries that spread from Spain and Mali to India and beyond. The Tombuctu library proves that place was a very important center in the network of societies that spread through half the world.
 
Now, if Babu Mussa fleet had accomplished that trip he wouldn't have found Olmecs at all. It was too late for that. They would had found Mayans already in decadence. The impact would have been minimum, because the local society would have absorved those travellers.
 
Pinguin
 


Edited by pinguin - 22-Aug-2007 at 21:49
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  Quote Almazy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 21:58
another thing I found interesting is that Thor Heyerdahl proved that you could travel from africa to far off place on a "reed boat".LOL. I believe that Malians could of traveled to America and simply traded with them maybe. or shared cultures.

"Ttbomk, Colon was involved in mercantile ventures
with "Guinea" some ten years before he planned
his westward voyage. He saw "Guineans" traveling
westward, beyond the nearby islands, laden with
trade goods.

This is one reason why I suspect Mali, and later
Songhai, kept the success of Bubacar's voyage a
government trade secret"



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  Quote Surmount Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 21:58

Afro-Olmec%20head
Collossol Afro-Olmec head of basalt wearing
Nubian type war helmet
, circa 1100 B.C.

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  Quote Almazy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 22:00
I guess that we would have to find some items,plants,food, or anything that in mali that you would usually find in America.
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  Quote Almazy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 22:06
Originally posted by Surmount

Afro-Olmec%20head
Collossol Afro-Olmec head of basalt wearing
Nubian type war helmet
, circa 1100 B.C.




how is this "afro" olmec?
I don't see anything african about this face and Africans have alot of genetic diversity.




Edited by Almazy - 22-Aug-2007 at 22:07
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 22:09
Originally posted by Almazy

another thing I found interesting is that Thor Heyerdahl proved that you could travel from africa to far off place on a "reed boat".LOL. I believe that Malians could of traveled to America and simply traded with them maybe. or shared cultures.

"Ttbomk, Colon was involved in mercantile ventures
with "Guinea" some ten years before he planned
his westward voyage. He saw "Guineans" traveling
westward, beyond the nearby islands, laden with
trade goods.

This is one reason why I suspect Mali, and later
Songhai, kept the success of Bubacar's voyage a
government trade secret"


 
Hyperdiffusionism is a vice that has infected many people, including Thor Heyyerdhal.
 
He didn't prove contact at all. All his theories has been desacredited by science. His idea that Peruvians reached Easter Island is today considered crap.
 
The trip of Musa has not been proven at all. It is just especulation, nothing else.
 
There are hundreds of similar claims and all of them have no support in reality.
 
The case of the Norse is quite extrange but understandable. The Americas were easily reached both from Siberian and from Greenland. The distances were quite short. In fact in both cases you could reach the Americas rowing.
 
You can't cross the atlantic or the pacific in a small boat. You need ships.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 22:11
Originally posted by Surmount

Afro-Olmec%20head
Collossol Afro-Olmec head of basalt wearing
Nubian type war helmet
, circa 1100 B.C.

 
 
Once again robbing the heritage of Amerindians, Surmount?
 
No matter how much you insist. That claim is not based in fact at all.
 
Is just pure concentrated bull .... nothing else.
 
The inventor of that ideology is Ivan Van Sertima. Blame him for making the ridiculous. In doubt, ask Clyde Winters LOLLOL
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Surmount Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 22:21
They weren't all African

Thats what it seems like you think i am trying to say.

But Africans played a role in the Americas In some of the early civilizations in America.

original%20Black%20nations%20of%20the%20Americas
A member of one of the original Black nations of the Americas,
the Afro-Darienite of Panama.





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  Quote Surmount Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 22:22

Afro-Olmec%20child
Face of Afro-Olmec child carved on the waste "belt" of an Olmec ballplayer

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  Quote Almazy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 22:35
[QUOTE=Surmount]They weren't all African

Thats what it seems like you think i am trying to say.

But Africans played a role in the Americas In some of the early civilizations in America.

original%20Black%20nations%20of%20the%20Americas
A member of one of the original Black nations of the Americas,
the Afro-Darienite of Panama.


                              ^^Why does this picture look so pixelated?
played a role? maybe. like trading with the olmecs but this hasnt been proven yet.

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  Quote Almazy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 22:40
Originally posted by Surmount

Afro-Olmec%20child
Face of Afro-Olmec child carved on the waste "belt" of an Olmec ballplayer



im not sure what is being proven here.


Edited by Almazy - 22-Aug-2007 at 22:41
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  Quote Surmount Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 22:47
Dr. Wiercinski (1972) claims that the some of the Olmecs were of African origin. He supports this claim with skeletal evidence from several Olmec sites where he found skeletons that were analogous to the West African type black. Wiercinski discovered that 13.5 percent of the skeletons from Tlatilco and 4.5 percent of the skeletons from Cerro de las Mesas were Africoid (Rensberger,1988; Wiercinski, 1972; Wiercinski & Jairazbhoy 1975).

This is amazing proof
So where are you Alzamy and penguin from?
And this is hard evedince not from an afrocentist
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 23:08
Originally posted by Surmount

Dr. Wiercinski (1972) claims ....

This is amazing proof
So where are you Alzamy and penguin from?
And this is hard evedince not from an afrocentist
 
 
Wiercinski is another idiot fellow without any prestige at all.
 
It is a pitty, Surmount, but the sad fact is that you don't care about Amerindian culture at all and robbing theirs ancestors.
 
I bet you claim racism when someone says Zimbadwe was built by Phoenicians and that Egypt was fully caucasian...
 
However you don't got the smallest respect for the people that build the civilizations of the Americas.
 
By the way, unlike what your "authority" Van Sertima says, the Olmecs were not the first civilization in the Americas at all.
 
I won't tell you, though, the origins of the civilizations in the Americas. Otherwise another charlatan could claim that civilization for the people of Nepal LOLLOL
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Surmount Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 23:26
This isn't about race

I could care less about race I'm just stating a part of history thats been proven and pushed aside.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 23:27
Originally posted by Surmount

Afro-Olmec%20child
Face of Afro-Olmec child carved on the waste "belt" of an Olmec ballplayer

 
I got your sources, Surmount. You relay on "Race and History", and afrocentric site.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/ancientamerica.htm

REFERENCES:

Wash*taw Nation (www.Hotep.org)

Clyde A. Winters (The Nubians and the Olmecs)

Blacks of India dalitstan.org

Blacks of the Pacific and Melanesia:
www.cwo.com/~lucumi/pacific.html

If you ever visit the ancient Afro-Olmec monuments of Mexico, the Wash*taw Nation of Louisiana, the monuments of Nubia, Egypt or West Africa you need to take great pictures:

www.photoalley.com

Your main schollar is Clyde Winters... LOLLOL
 
 
If you want to know more about the Wish*ta nation I will tell you that is just a group of Black Americans that like to play indians and that a really weird doctrine.
 
Here a link about the Black mound builders
 
LOLLOL
 
Please. Could you read history, for a change?
 
Moderators: Can something be done to prevent posting pseudo-history?
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 23:28
Originally posted by Surmount

This isn't about race

I could care less about race I'm just stating a part of history thats been proven and pushed aside.
 
Is only about race. Not about fact or history.
 
 
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  Quote Surmount Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 23:39
This isn't about race

I could care less about race I'm just stating a part of history thats been proven and pushed aside.

Some writers claim that the Olmec were related to peoples of Africa based on interpretation of a wide range of skeletal, linguistic, epigraphic, religious and anthropological data. Some researchers specifically identify the Olmecs with the Mand people of West Africa.

The idea that the Olmecs are related to Africans is an old one. Jos Melgar, who discovered the first colossal head at Hueyapan (now Tres Zapotes) in 1862, subsequently published two papers that attributed this head to a "Negro race".[1]

Jos Melgar is a mesoamerican the first one to find the heads and he even attributes these heads to Africans.

Remember i told you a long time ago not only blacks claim this even mesoamericans, caucasians, all sorts of people have given evidence of them being african. Like i said its not about race its about fact.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 23:45
Originally posted by Surmount

This isn't about race

I could care less about race I'm just stating a part of history thats been proven and pushed aside....

 
 
If it is not about race, why you cite racist sources?
 
By the way, you are trying to push pseudo-history and in no way history, which is based on facts.
 
And I am afraid you will keep pushing.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2007 at 23:46
This thread has surpassed its original purpose.  No one is convincing the other of his point in a free discussion.  Rather, people are being provoked into ceaseless arguments and the moderators are being annoyed by ad nauseam repetition.  As in the other thread which Seko closed, so also will this one be closed until further notice.
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