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Polish Winged Hussars?

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Poll Question: Were the Winged Hussars the best cavalry untis in the time period?
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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Polish Winged Hussars?
    Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 06:44
Switzerland has a kind of a direct democracy. But who said that a direct democracy is a true democracy?
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 19:47
because its 'direct'! Wink
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2008 at 23:26
No democracy outside the "town meeting" or the gathering of the clan, can be democratic in the academic sense.  Any larger polity must be representative, i.e., it must be a republic.
 
That is the best we have come up with so far.
 
 
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  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2008 at 13:17
Winged Hussars and democracy as with pigs that fly are abstractions for the ludicrous.
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 16:12
Yes, much like Switzerland - all major decisions are put up for a referendum. Not the usual current day systems.

True centralization would have kept the Royal power strong and allowed it to keep the local slachta in line.
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  Quote Władysław Warnencz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 12:55
Originally posted by drgonzaga

Winged Hussars and democracy as with pigs that fly are abstractions for the ludicrous.
 
And why do you think winged hussars are an abstraction?
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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 09:28
A new book of my friend about Polish winged hussar. Full version for free. here

Edited by ataman - 29-Sep-2008 at 09:32
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  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 13:24
Cool, I would love to read that if I knew Polish.

Edited by Roberts - 29-Sep-2008 at 13:25
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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2009 at 21:45
So what does everyone think about the Hussars beating Pike and shot formations?


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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 06:25
I can summarize you what Radosław Sikora's writes in his newest book ('Na skrzydłach husarii') about winged hussars.

He specifies 4 methods of breaking pike-shot infantry and gives examples from battles.


The first method – firstly strike enemy cavalry; then strike infantry confused by fleeing cavalry. Sikora gives 2 examples when it happened: battle of Lubieszów 1577 and battle of Kircholm 1605 (in this second case it happened in the later phase of the battle). According to Sikora and his detailed analyze of the battle of Lubieszów, this method was almost harmless for hussars. I mean casualties of hussars were minimal.


The second method – firstly, own infantry should shoot to enemy infantry; then cavalry should charge. And again Sikora gives 2 examples when it happened: battle of Kłuszyn 1610 and battle of Mitawa 1622. According to Sikora, the key to success of this method was to confuse (and to frighten) infantry enough before a charge of cavalry.


The third method – charge fast enough to strike enemy infantry before pikemen will be ready to fight. And again Sikora gives 2 examples when it happened: the battle near to Moscow 1611 and the first phase of the battle of Połonka 1660.


The fourth method – use longer lances than enemy pikes. Sikora gives 1 example – the charge of hussars vs Cossacks, who were defending wagons, in the fight between Lubar and Cudnów 1660.


After that, Sikora writes also about lengths of hussar lances. The longest ones were 6,2m long and they were used already in the first half of 17th c. He also writes about special manner of wielding the lance. This manner permitted to use such long lances.


Then he also specifies another battles, where hussars broke pike-shot infantry: Byczyna 1588, Mohylew 1655, Smoleńsk 1633 and Kircholm 1605 (the first phase). But he points out that known sources don't explain how exactly hussars broke pikemen in these battles.

Then he analyzes the first phase of the battle of Kircholm 1605 and speculates how hussars could break pike-shot infantry.


In the chapter hussars vs pikemen, Sikora also writes about some popular myth – that horses were not able to charge piks. He quotes primary sources from different battles (Kłuszyn 1610, Kumejki 1637, Łubnie 1638, Olkienniki 1700) which prove that horses' chests hit: piks, fences, wagons, Spanish riders (a kind of obstacle).


Finally he recapitulates this chapter and writes about decisive factors which permitted:

- to break pikemen by hussars
- to stand pikemen in the face of a hussar charge.

I hope it helps :)



Edited by ataman - 03-Feb-2009 at 06:28
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2009 at 20:42
Originally posted by ataman

horses' chests hit: piks, fences, wagons, Spanish riders (a kind of obstacle).




what do you mean by that? that horses got actually killed during the charge?
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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2009 at 06:10
Originally posted by Temujin


what do you mean by that? that horses got actually killed during the charge?
 
Some of them probably were killed. Certainly there were many wounded horses. For example, a source to the battle of Kłuszyn states that:
 
'sieła nasi w koniach przez mężne natarcie znosząc płoty [...] a na spisy piersiami wpadając szkody odnieśli'
 
(my translation: 'thanks to the brave attack, in which fences were broken and horses chests' were runing into piks, our hussars had a lot of harms in horses')
 
'Harms' might be interpreted as wounded or killed (or both - wounded and killed).
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2009 at 14:55

As the Count's question was about pike and shot formations, the matter of musketry needs to be considered along with horses crashing into formations of pikes or onto Spanish riders/swines' feathers, etc.

Kircholm was an example to the Swedes that pikes were necessary to survive cavalry attack.  In later years, the more disciplined use of firearms, and particularly with a much greater number of muskets, also led to cavalry experiencing a decline in effectiveness in the Swedish-Polish war.  Certainly, the Swedes respected the hussars, but the use of field fortifications and the development of fire discipline enabled them to deal with them and to accomplish most of their objectives.
 
I am not convinced that the salvo or salve was all that decisive against a cavalry charge, but muskets did extend the reach of foot sufficiently to reduce its effectiveness, particularly as much of the shot concentrated on the horses.  The combination of greater reach by musketry and the formation of pikes was effective in countering cavalry most of the time by the 1620s.  As long as the foot retained discipline they could withstand the shock attack.  At Kircholm, they had few pikes, except for some mercenary companies, and the Swedes had little experience in using them.   

Primary sources in the western wars (most specifically in France) indicate that horses would not throw themselves onto formations of pikes or similar barriers, and the use of pistols became more frequent as the French religious wars went on.

 
  
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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2009 at 16:28
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Kircholm was an example to the Swedes that pikes were necessary to survive cavalry attack.
 
I don't understand. Swedish army at Kircholm had piks and lost.
 
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

In later years, the more disciplined use of firearms, and particularly with a much greater number of muskets, also led to cavalry experiencing a decline in effectiveness in the Swedish-Polish war. 
 
Could you give some example?
In fact, even after introducing flinlock muskets into Swedish army, their fire didn't stop hussars. The best exaple is at Kliszów 1702.
 
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Certainly, the Swedes respected the hussars, but the use of field fortifications and the development of fire discipline enabled them to deal with them and to accomplish most of their objectives.
 
The use of field fortifications - yes. But not the development of fire discipline. Casualties of cavalry were still low, but field fortifications solid enough were stopping hussars.
 
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

I am not convinced that the salvo or salve was all that decisive against a cavalry charge, but muskets did extend the reach of foot sufficiently to reduce its effectiveness, particularly as much of the shot concentrated on the horses. 
 
The reach of muskets was indeed bigger, but it didn't change anything. Soldiers still were advised to shoot at minimal distance (20-30 m or less).
 
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

The combination of greater reach by musketry and the formation of pikes was effective in countering cavalry most of the time by the 1620s. 
 
Could you give some examples?  
 
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

As long as the foot retained discipline they could withstand the shock attack.  At Kircholm, they had few pikes, except for some mercenary companies, and the Swedes had little experience in using them.
 
The Swedes at Kircholm had more pikemen than Lithuanians had hussars. And they weren't inexperienced. They were regular soldiers from German countries hired by Sweden.
 
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Primary sources in the western wars (most specifically in France) indicate that horses would not throw themselves onto formations of pikes or similar barriers, and the use of pistols became more frequent as the French religious wars went on.
 
I believe you.
But look at this. Most people aren't able to run 100 m in 10 seconds. It doesn't mean, that there are no people who can do it.
Horse is not equel horse, like people are not equel people. Proper selection of horses, their proper training, more selfconfidence of Polish cavalrymen, and so on... and you have more agressive cavalry, which was able to charge also piks.
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2009 at 16:53
Originally posted by ataman

 
The Swedes at Kircholm had more pikemen than Lithuanians had hussars. And they weren't inexperienced. They were regular soldiers from German countries hired by Sweden.


Not entirely correct. Around 90% of the Swedish army at Kircholm was national Swedish (and Finnish), and around 40% equipped with pikes. Pikeshot is correct when he says that they were inexperienced with pikes as well: they were not yet fully trained. Kirkholm is not really a good example to use to judge the Polish hussars, considering the inexperience of the Swedish soldiers and the incredible incompetence shown by the Swedish generals - and especially the king. It was a brilliant Polish victory, but not a final proof of the invincibility of the hussars.

 
Could you give some example?
In fact, even after introducing flinlock muskets into Swedish army, their fire didn't stop hussars. The best exaple is at Kliszów 1702.

Iirc infantry was exactly what stopped the Poles at Kliszow after having routed parts of the Swedish cavalry (excepting the Polish total disinterest in the whole affair).

The use of field fortifications - yes. But not the development of fire discipline. Casualties of cavalry were still low, but field fortifications solid enough were stopping hussars.

The field fortifications assigned to the infantry ("swine feathers", la sort of ong pikes used by the infantry as amobile fence) under GA were abandoned when it became apparant that salvoe fire was enough to stop even the hussars.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 04-Feb-2009 at 17:09
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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2009 at 17:07

A musket isn't that great, for instance: Period muskets were tested and forty three percent of them were duds and that was using good modern (precisely measured) powder, and that was just duds thats not counting misfires, explosions, dampness, rust, etc. 

Also they were'nt aimed and they were smothbores so they just leveled them in the general direction of the enemy and then jerked back the lever (which even without the other factors drastically throws your aim off)


Edited by Count Belisarius - 04-Feb-2009 at 17:09


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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2009 at 17:08
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

It was a brilliant Polish victory, but not a final proof of the invincibility of the hussars.
 
Nothing is invicible. Hussars too. I pointed out that there were more pikemen at Kircholm than hussars. And you confirm it. But maybe indeed most of them were Swedish not German (I have to check it).

Originally posted by Styrbiorn


Iirc infantry was exactly what stopped the Poles at Kliszow after having routed parts of the Swedish cavalry.

 
Swedish infantry protected by caltrops Smile. They were caltrops which stopped hussars. Even Swedish general Vellingk stated that hussars withstood Swedish salvo in a good order.

 
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

The field fortifications assigned to the infantry ("swine feathers", la sort of ong pikes used by the infantry as amobile fence) under GA were abandoned when it became apparant that salvoe fire was enough to stop even the hussars.
 
Examples please.
On the other hand I can give you examples, when unprotected by obstacles Gustaw's infantry didn't stop hussars - battle of Mitawa 1622 and battle of Riga 1621. Either piks or muskets didn't stop hussars in these battles.
BTW, the battle of Mitawa is also the example that a ditch was able to stop hussars. After a defeat of part of Swedish pike-shot infantry in the open field, the rest infantrymen hid behind a ditch. And hussars weren't able to charge them in this situation.
 


Edited by ataman - 04-Feb-2009 at 17:09
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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2009 at 17:13
Can anyone tell how many hussars won and how many times they lost and the tactics used by both sides in each battle?


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  Quote Count Belisarius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2009 at 17:13
How did a ditch stop them?


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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2009 at 17:17
Originally posted by Count Belisarius

Can anyone tell how many hussars won and how many times they lost and the tactics used by both sides in each battle?
 
I'm affraid nobody counted it. There were too many battles in their almost 3 c. history.
 
Originally posted by Count Belisarius

How did a ditch stop them?
 
Horses can't fly Smile. If they meet a ditch wide enough, they have to stop. In the same way hussars were stopped in the battle of Gniew 1626 and Kleck 1656 (both vs Swedes).


Edited by ataman - 04-Feb-2009 at 17:18
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