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Polish Winged Hussars?

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Poll Question: Were the Winged Hussars the best cavalry untis in the time period?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
73 [60.33%]
14 [11.57%]
30 [24.79%]
4 [3.31%]
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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Polish Winged Hussars?
    Posted: 17-Mar-2009 at 17:34
Originally posted by Roberts


How much are Germans, Russians, Ukrainians and Lithuanians liked in Poland? Smile

Germans 38%

Russians 30%

Ukrainians 34%

Lithuanians 41%

All these data are for January 2009



Edited by ataman - 17-Mar-2009 at 17:35
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  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2009 at 17:30
Originally posted by ataman

Originally posted by Tryskochvost

really?

Yeap. Here is the list of the first 5 the most favourite nations for the Poles. Czechs are nr 2 - 53% of the Poles declare liking for Czechs. 

Italians (54%)
Czechs (53%)
Spaniards (52%)
Slovaks (51%)
Englishmen (51%)


How much are Germans, Russians, Ukrainians and Lithuanians liked in Poland? Smile
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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2009 at 17:25

Originally posted by Tryskochvost

really?

Yeap. Here is the list of the first 5 the most favourite nations for the Poles. Czechs are nr 2 - 53% of the Poles declare liking for Czechs. 

Italians (54%)
Czechs (53%)
Spaniards (52%)
Slovaks (51%)
Englishmen (51%)

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  Quote Tryskochvost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2009 at 16:31
really? maybe I am mistaken now i am in morava [brno]. but i think it is because of religion, in Cz there are some 80percent of atheists, [damn the comunists] they dont like catholic and in poland there are most people catholic. in cz there are gossips, that in poand teletubies, pat a mat and kremilek a vochomurka are forbidden and so on, but the minority of christians like poland very much
"Toho bohda nebude, aby Cesky kral z boje utikal"(Let it never be the case that a Bohemian king runs from a fight!] John the Blind-king of Bohemia,in battle for Crecy
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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2009 at 19:08
Originally posted by Tryskochvost

Not so long ago, I heard a ridiculous tale about battle for  Vienna:
 
John III Sobieski was travelling very long to reach Vienna. When he was in range, he let to serve three hours long masse for victory (to archangel Michael and God, off course) than he put angel wings on the backs of all his soldiers and led them into near forest,where half of them hitted the trees, when they reached turkish army, they won only by miracle. After battle, John III viewed five thousands of dead hussars and said : You did not died unselessly.
I hope the story is not taken from any historical book Smile
Originally posted by Tryskochvost

It heated me! In my -ateistic- country there are many people with bad view on Poland.
Paradoxicaly, the Czechs are at the top of the list of the most favourite nations in Poland. 


Edited by ataman - 14-Mar-2009 at 19:09
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  Quote Tryskochvost Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 19:46
Not so long ago, I heard a ridiculous tale about battle for  Vienna:
 
John III Sobieski was travelling very long to reach Vienna. When he was in range, he let to serve three hours long masse for victory (to archangel Michael and God, off course) than he put angel wings on the backs of all his soldiers and led them into near forest,where half of them hitted the trees, when they reached turkish army, they won only by miracle. After battle, John III viewed five thousands of dead hussars and said : You did not died unselessly.
 
It heated me! In my -ateistic- country there are many people with bad view on Poland. If I could, i would be a pole...hussar offcourse
"Toho bohda nebude, aby Cesky kral z boje utikal"(Let it never be the case that a Bohemian king runs from a fight!] John the Blind-king of Bohemia,in battle for Crecy
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2009 at 09:09
Originally posted by Strongbow

1683 this is 17th century,right so?
 
yes
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  Quote Strongbow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2009 at 01:16
1683 this is 17th century,right so?
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2009 at 19:45
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

Originally posted by ataman

About the battle of Trzciana 1629 – look at this link:


I mentioned the wrong battle LOL  Don't remember which I meant, and I'm at work now, so I can't contribute more anyway.
 
 
I will lend You a hand. Did You meant Battle of Tczew (Dirschau)?
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2009 at 06:56
Originally posted by ataman

About the battle of Trzciana 1629 – look at this link:


I mentioned the wrong battle LOL  Don't remember which I meant, and I'm at work now, so I can't contribute more anyway.
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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2009 at 05:47
Originally posted by Temujin


and please add some informations about those cavalry actions mentioned above.


These are 3 battles of so called 'Prussian war' - the war between Poland and Sweden waged in Royal (Polish) Prussia in years 1626-1629.

There were 5 battles in this war, which involved hussars:

  • the battle of Gniew (Swedish name Mewe) 1626; it was a drawn; the battle saw a broad use of obstacles by the Swedes, which were stopping hussar charges.

  • the battle of Czarne (Hammerstein) 1627; won by the Poles

  • the battle of Tczew (Dirschau) 1627; won by the Poles

  • the battle of Górzno 1629; won by the Swedes

  • the battle of Trzciana (Honigfeld) 1629; won by the Poles

There was also Grudziąc 1628, where both armies met, but Gustaw Adolf didn't want to leave fortified position, while Stanisław Koniecpolski didn't want to attack Swedish earthworks, so both armies dispersed without a battle.


The battle of Górzno happened in winter (on the 12th of February, 1629). The Polish army was in the worse shape in this war. Its real strength was only 30% of its theoretical strength. Unfortunately most of Polish commanders weren't present too (including main commander – Polish hetman Stanisław Koniecpolski, who left the army and went to proceedings of Sejm to 'fight' for money for his army), what led to a big confusion in the army.


All in all, there were less than 4000 Polish soldiers in the battle (but not less than 2300). Swedish army had 6200 soldiers.

This was an exceptional battle, because the Swedes, knowing fatal conditions of Polish army, risked the open field battle.


The action mentioned by Styrbiorn took place close to Zaborowo village (look at the map http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Battle_of_Gorzno1629.jpg). First of all, Teuffel's squadron of Swedish musketeers shot to Polish cavalry, which provoked a charge of some hussars (their number was lower than 200). Hussars smashed this squadron of musketeers and with partially broken lances involved themselves in the fight against Wrangel's and Streiff's squadrons of cavalry. During the fight, both sides were supported by next units. But total number of Polish cavalrymen didn't exceed 300 (including 200 hussars and at most 100 cossacks).

The rest of Polish army stayed away and tried to make an order in units but the lack of presence of the bulk of commanders made it impossible. Polish army was so confused that Polish artillery (4 pieces) was shooting to Polish soldiers. So the only ones who (in this phase of the battle; there were some encounters between infantry earlier that day) really fought vs entire Swedish army was this small group of at most 300 cavalrymen. They finally withdraw. The rest of Polish army also withdraw without any fight. Polish casualties: 80 killed cavalrymen and 700 captured infantrymen.



About the battle of Trzciana 1629 – look at this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Trzciana

Unfortunately there are number of errors in this description. For example both Polish and Swedish armies were smaller; Polish casualties were smaller too (there were not 300 killed, but 250 wounded and killed), etc.



Originally posted by Temujin

well second day Parkany was won mainly by the Imperial and princely forces, not by the Poles.

It was won by allied forces (like the battle of Vienna). Polish cavalry (the same which was smashed in the first day of the battle) fought really hard and effectively.


As far as enemies of Polish cavalry are concerned. Apart from the battle of Cecora 1620, Chocim 1621, Chocim 1673, Vienna 1683 and Parkany 1683, Polish cavalry also fought vs Ottoman cavalry at Kamieniec Podolski (in 1633) and at Bojan (in 1685). Both big battles were won by the Poles. There was also some contingent of Polish cavalry, which supported Hungarians in the battle of Mohacs 1526 (Ottoman victory).


Polish cavalry fought also vs:

  • Hungarian cavalry (from Transylvania) – at Humienne in 1619 (Polish victory).

  • French, English and Flemish cavalry – at Kłuszyn in 1610 (Polish victory).


There were of course numerous battles vs Tartar, Wallahian, Moldavian, Cossack, Russian and Swedish cavalry.


Generally Hapsburgs in 16-17th c. were Polish allies, so apart from the battle of Byczyna 1588, I don't know any other battle where Polish and imperial cavalry fought against each other.

Anyway, Polish lisowczyks supported Emperor during TYW, and participated in a couple of battles in that time.


I don't know about any fight between Polish and Spanish cavalrymen in 16-17th c. Although I know some plan which is relevant to this subject. Spain wanted to hire Polish cavalry (including hussars) in 1639-1640. There were some negotiations, but finally the plan failed.



Edited by ataman - 06-Feb-2009 at 09:26
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2009 at 21:07
well second day Parkany was won mainly by the Imperial and princely forces, not by the Poles. in regards to Hungarian cavalry or more preciesly Hussars, in regards to all of Europe, except Poland-Lithuania, Hussars were light cavalry, only in Poland-Lithuania Hussars were heavy cavalry. and Hussars originate from Bosnia/Serbia, Hungary only adopted them like Poland and the rest of Europe eventually. European heavy cavalry other than Polish-Lithuanian was not Balkan-influenced at all. 
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2009 at 20:18
Originally posted by Temujin

Poles also lost the first day of the battle of Parkany. also Hungarian Hussars only influenced european light cavalry (except Poland). at Byczyna only a small fragment of Habsburg soldiers fought, not the main army, don't know about the Polish army. when i mentioned Habsburg domains i was also thinking of Croats, also if you want to include Spain, Spain also had considerably good cavalry.
 
Yes, but they also won the second day of the Battle.
At Byczyna there was also only a small part of Polish army. The forces were equal. The fact is a fact that Habsburgs lost. Archduke Maxymilian III was imprisoned. And all this in times were Poland didn't have a king.  
Hungarians and Serbs also influenced Polish Winged Hussars so they had an impact not only on light cavalry. Why do You think Hungarians didn't influence Polish light cavalry? They did influence it as well as e.g. Tartars. 
 
Croats and Spanish had good cavalry although Spanish are more famous from their excellent infantry.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2009 at 19:46
Poles also lost the first day of the battle of Parkany. also Hungarian Hussars only influenced european light cavalry (except Poland). at Byczyna only a small fragment of Habsburg soldiers fought, not the main army, don't know about the Polish army. when i mentioned Habsburg domains i was also thinking of Croats, also if you want to include Spain, Spain also had considerably good cavalry.
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2009 at 19:33

Habsburgs had a good cavalry because of their Hungarian domains. Hungarians are kind of fathers of European cavalry. 

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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2009 at 19:29
Originally posted by Reginmund

Originally posted by Temujin

in general, within a purely european context we can say that the Polish-Lithuanian cavalry was most likely the best (not considdering Ottoman cavalry). however i wouldn't go as far as to extent that globally.


It raises the question of what exactly justifies their position as the best in Europe, or rather, who were their main contenders and how did these fall short compared with the Polish Hussars? The same question could be asked concerning how the Polish Hussars compared with similar types of Ottoman cavalry.
 
The only encounter between Poles and habsburg army has taken place in 1588 durin Battle of Byczyna. It was Polish victory. Considering Ottomans there were 4 main battles: 2 battles of Chocim, Battle of Vienna and Battle of Cecora. Only last of them was won by Ottomans. From what I've read Hussars considered Ottomans their toughest enemy.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2009 at 19:19
diversity of cavalry force, numbers, rate of sucess and tactics. second in europe i would call the cavalry of the Habsburg domains. don't know why Ottomans won in some cases but certainly numbers play into this as well as the cavalry traditions particularly of auxiliary forces like the Crimean Tatars.
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2009 at 13:07
Originally posted by Temujin

in general, within a purely european context we can say that the Polish-Lithuanian cavalry was most likely the best (not considdering Ottoman cavalry). however i wouldn't go as far as to extent that globally.


It raises the question of what exactly justifies their position as the best in Europe, or rather, who were their main contenders and how did these fall short compared with the Polish Hussars? The same question could be asked concerning how the Polish Hussars compared with similar types of Ottoman cavalry.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2009 at 20:36
Originally posted by ataman

Originally posted by Styrbiorn

That's an oversimplification which is not really true. As I said, the obstacles were abandoned and the tactics used to counter them were generally use of volleys interchanged with attacking cavalry and favourable terrain. We can also have a look at pure cavalry fights. For example, the German cavalry squadroons did at several occasions defeat or at least draw Polish cavalryt in head to head cavalry actions (eg at Gorzno, Trzcina, Dirschau).
 
Górzno? AFAIK German cavalry didn't fight alone. There were also Swedish infantrymen. And all together they outnumbered Polish hussars very much.
Trzciana? The Swedes lost the battle.
Dirschau? What exactly do you mean with this battle?


in general, within a purely european context we can say that the Polish-Lithuanian cavalry was most likely the best (not considdering Ottoman cavalry). however i wouldn't go as far as to extent that globally.

and please add some informations about those cavalry actions mentioned above.
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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2009 at 19:53
Originally posted by Styrbiorn


I'm not totally sure what we are discussing in this thread,
 
By now it is off topic Smile. The original question was:
 
'So what does everyone think about the Hussars beating Pike and shot formations?'
 
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

but if it is how good the hussars were in comparison with other cavalry of the same time, neither Kircholm or Klushino are good examples to use because of that very reason. In neither battle the hussars faced the proffessional forces in any ordered form.
 
I don't agree.
 
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

For example, at Kircholm large parts of the Swedish infantry was ridden down by their own fleeing infantry, then immidiately attacked by the pursuing Poles. The units that were not ridden down could keep their order did not succumb to the Poles, and could retreat even though being completely surrounded and attacked from all directions.
 
We were talking about it a long time ago. And if you remember, I've quoted primary source which states that the first action in the battle of Kircholm was smashing ready to fight squardron of Swedish pike-shot infantry. They weren't ride down by own cavalry, because Swedish cavalry wasn't involved in the fight yet.
Though it is also true that second Swedish line of infantry was smashed because it was ridden down by own cavalry.
 
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

The foreign troops were not more numerous than the whole PL army either.
 
R.I.Frost 'The Norther Wars' p. 64:
'Together with the western mercenaries in the cavalry, they [foreign mercenaries] outnumbered Jan Karol Chodkiewicz's entire army'


 
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

That's an oversimplification which is not really true. As I said, the obstacles were abandoned and the tactics used to counter them were generally use of volleys interchanged with attacking cavalry and favourable terrain. We can also have a look at pure cavalry fights. For example, the German cavalry squadroons did at several occasions defeat or at least draw Polish cavalryt in head to head cavalry actions (eg at Gorzno, Trzcina, Dirschau).
 
Górzno? AFAIK German cavalry didn't fight alone. There were also Swedish infantrymen. And all together they outnumbered Polish hussars very much.
Trzciana? The Swedes lost the battle.
Dirschau? What exactly do you mean with this battle?


Edited by ataman - 04-Feb-2009 at 19:54
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