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Is it true blacks were in ancient greece

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Aster Thrax Eupator View Drop Down
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is it true blacks were in ancient greece
    Posted: 12-Aug-2007 at 16:33
...Yes, well - that's Hollywood for you LOL. The directors always dress up such crap, like for the 300. The producers said that it was trying to deeply emphasise how reality becomes myth, or words to that effect. I think that they're just over-intellectualising it and trying to cover up the fact that they just want a movie with blood.
...Anyway, enough of my trolling - back to the question at hand.
 
This question is two vauge - "Is it true there were blacks in ancient greece?". We have all agreed here that probably some Nubian trader or someone did toddle into Greece (which also covers Sicily, parts of Italy, North Africa, Spain and Asia minor...), but does the person who started the thread want POLITICAL evidence of Africans in Greece? Because certainly nobody here is statisfied with the obvious small-scale answer.
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2007 at 20:03
Didn't the people of Ancient Greece vote for who they wanted and those voted against had to move out out of town? Before the advent of modern medicine people of various areas were suspicious of strangers with different complexions. The various communities tended to blame any outbreak of diseases, even crop failure, upon immigrants.
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 04:35
Yes, that was a practice called "ostrocization" institated by one of the Athenian tyrants (I can't remember who...) which supposedly ensured that a dangerous party leader could be removed. The citizens of the city in question (Not only Athens used it) would have to write on a piece of pot-shard or "Osthros" who they wanted to leave. If over 6000 people wanted one man to leave, he had to clear out for a decade - no questions asked.
 
Firstly, this system was instated at a time at which the Greeks had so much to do with other nations who were different in skin colour (Cimon in Egypt, Cyrus II's revolt etc) that apparently that wasn't much of an issue. Also, the ruling classes got the vote, so any of the helots or farmers that you are talking about wouldn't have been able to voice any xenophobic superstitions that they had. And the ruling classes' vote in such an action wouldn't have been influenced by agriculture.
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 05:47
So the common working class didn't have a voice over those who put themselves above their own countrymen? Isn't that an answer in itself?
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 09:30
Yes, because there were financial barriers which you had to pass in order to become a citizen, and other obvious ones (Not a previous enemy of the state, not a women, not a slave, etc...). I don't really see how the structure of Athenian democracy really matters when concerning this issue, though, interesting though it is.
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  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 10:17
i dont like the idea that everybody try to portaray Black people in antiquity as slaves,slavery of black people is not an ancient fenomen is quite modern,slavery in antiquity was not racist.There were whites,blacks and all colors slaves in antiquity,as were aristocrats.
Me pune,me perpjekje.
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 11:43
...None of us are, and I think that all of us here realise that. We are speaking about black presence in Ancient Greece - two of the possible notions are traders and perhaps the odd black slave or two (as I actually said earlier on). Although most slaves would have been white, there could have been a few black slaves - it's not undeniable.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 12:17
Originally posted by Aster Thrax Eupator

... Although most slaves would have been white, there could have been a few black slaves - it's not undeniable.
 
Yes, it is also possible there were some Inuit, Japanese and Indonesian slaves in Greece as well Big%20smile
 
I believe the problem is that people projects the present to the past... that's all.
 
Pinguin
 
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 12:31
Pinguin...that...wasn't what I was saying at all. You are twisting my words to breaking point. Read the rest of the thread before you post, there's a good boy Wink.
 
What I was saying was that there were slaves in Ancient Greek society - they formed an integral part. Greece had many connections with Egypt and thus, it's possible that there were some black slaves. There could have been black  traders as well, but since Greece and Egypt traded, it's possible that there could have been some black slaves amongst that trade.
 
...Actually, the people who have accused me of "projecting the present to the past" are the ones who have shown themselves to be ignorant - not me. The people who posted those messages evidently don't know that Greece and many other nations monopolised on slavery long before the British empire and others did, which is something which they are evidently not aware of. The fact that they can't seem to think of slavery without thinking of the infamous Atlantic slave trade of the 17th - 19th Centuries shows them to be ignorant more than anything.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 14:51
Yes there were many, many, many black slaves in Greece, that is not to say that all slaves there were black.  Slavery was big in greece, especially Athens(birthplace of democracy, go figure)  This is evident in lots of art depicting blacks and literature.  There is ancient Greek poetry especially about Nubians who were held in high regard and considered very beautiful and exotic.  The Africans as well as other foreigners being in Greece is one of the reasons Greeks such as myself look the way we do today.  The ancient greeks were considered to be the lightest haired and most fair skinned of the then known world.  Even by the before the ottoman occupation their appearence had changed as you can tell by art from the Byzantine period.  Theres a really really detailed site out there with serious genetic data about all types of ancient and modern ethnicities, I will try to find and post.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 14:59
Originally posted by k0jak

Yes there were many, many, many black slaves in Greece, that is not to say that all slaves there were black....
 
Oh Yes!
According to Diop and other billiant minds all Greeks were Blacks. Others go beyond that, like Clyde Winters that said Vikings were also Blacks.
 
Certainty,
 
Pinguin
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 15:00
Pinguin - don't be pathetic. That's not what he was saying. We said the occasional one or two may have been black - we don't think that.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 15:00
Originally posted by Aster Thrax Eupator

..Greece had many connections with Egypt and thus, it's possible that there were some black slaves...
 
Nobody denies some Egyptians lived in Greece, as some Greeks lived in India. That's part of history.
 
Pinguin
 
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 15:02
I wasn't saying that nobody was denying it - you keep getting the wrong end of the stick - I was saying that their connections in Egypt - long before the time of Alexander - could be a suitable reason to explain if they had any black slaves, if any.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 16:43
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by k0jak

Yes there were many, many, many black slaves in Greece, that is not to say that all slaves there were black....
 
Oh Yes!
According to Diop and other billiant minds all Greeks were Blacks. Others go beyond that, like Clyde Winters that said Vikings were also Blacks.
 
Certainty,
 
Pinguin
 
All I said was that there were black slaves, not brilliant minds. 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 16:44
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by k0jak

Yes there were many, many, many black slaves in Greece, that is not to say that all slaves there were black....
 
Oh Yes!
According to Diop and other billiant minds all Greeks were Blacks. Others go beyond that, like Clyde Winters that said Vikings were also Blacks.
 
Certainty,
 
Pinguin
 
All I was saying was that there were black slaves, not brilliant minds, and most certainly not vikings, a group of people the ancient Greeks would call Barbarians
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 16:49
Originally posted by Aster Thrax Eupator

Pinguin - don't be pathetic. That's not what he was saying. We said the occasional one or two may have been black - we don't think that.
 
No, he was saying that greeks were very fair-skinned, but now they are darker and have curly hair because of a significant african component. Which is rubbish... Based on this type of argument, I have heard Afrocentrists argue that the Scottish and Irish were black!
What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi

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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 17:03
I see Decebal - but look at modern day Turks - you can get Ginger ones (quite rare) or very dark ones I guess it's the same with Greeks.
 
There can't have been many slaves who were black for obvious reasons, but even less, because actually (not many people actually know this) slavery wasn't an integral part of the culture of a Greek polis. There were expections - in some of the Dorian states such as the Spartans/Lacedemonians, Phocian and Locrians, slavery was. But one examines Athens, Attic states and Ionian states, slavery did help, but only to make the lives of those who were comfortable a little more comfortable. Since large scale agriculture hadn't been utlized on poor Greek soil (Sparta is an exception, for their land was pretty good for Greece...), one man could roughly farm enough food for himself. An agricultural slave was a burden, and for the average citizen, who had to go to work, attend the citizen's assembly and do his own things, keeping an industry of slaves was too much work. The average Greek polis was based on collaboration of ALL the citizens - government on a scale comprehensable to the people - every Greek citizen was expected to turn up - not enforced, just because the polis and their participation was the Greek way of life. So he just didn't have time to organise the buerocracy needed to have an army of slaves. Remember that Cleon (that's right, the famous Cleon) was a leather-worker, and Solon was origionally a simple trader, so not all Greek citizens were that rich. ...So as for African slaves, there can't have been that many ordinary slaves to begin with, LET ALONE African ones. Although we can't dispute the fact that once, in one Greek polis, somewhere, there was a black slave - or even citizen.


Edited by Aster Thrax Eupator - 13-Aug-2007 at 17:08
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 17:28
Originally posted by Aster Thrax Eupator

.So as for African slaves, there can't have been that many ordinary slaves to begin with, LET ALONE African ones. Although we can't dispute the fact that once, in one Greek polis, somewhere, there was a black slave - or even citizen.
 
Let me ask you how many Greeks were living in Nubia, Ethiopia, Ghana, Nigeria and South Africa at that time.
 
I bet the numbers were similars from Subsaharians living in Greece.
 
Just common sense and logic, I guess.
 
Pinguin
 
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 17:34
...What are you on about? I never said that there were loads of Greeks living in those nations! Seriously buddy, read the bl**dy thread! You keep getting the wrong end of the stick and angering me in the process! If you want to debate, that's great, but it's impossible to do so with someone who seems to twist your words. The quote of mine in your post has nothing to do with whatever you've written at the bottom. Of course there were no Greeks living in those areas (possibly apart from Nubia)- all I'm saying is that one time in ancient history, there probably was a Nubian, Numidian or black Egyptian who went to a Greek city.
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