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Divine Inconsistencies
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Divine Inconsistencies
    Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 07:11
Originally posted by Feanor


Idealism and god cannot be disproven by epistemological means. God and science do not contradict with each other, agreed, but religion and science do.
 
No, Church (a group of humans who try to force people to believe in some way) and Science might contradict. But Religion and Science are not contradicting each other.
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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 07:12
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by HEROI

Anton what you reply to my posts is not something that in my opinion coresponds to what i was try to explain,therefore i am not continuing a debate on which we dont have common ground,such as understanding each other.Feanor for example has posted answeres simmilar to what i have posted,if you dont really get what i am try to say then read what he is try to say,is quite simmilar.
 
I don't know what is your ground but I studied Biology and got PhD in this field. I was particularly interested in creation of life and do not find scientific explanation convincing. As many of my colleagues by the way. Do not try to scare me with your refusal to debate.  Smile 
 
Anton dont get me wrong,i am here to debate,if i did not take pleasure out of debating with you then i would not but i clearly am.I thought that you might have got me wrong there and thats why i posted that,for example you were in that post disagreing with me on something which i did not in the first place gave an opinion upon.
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Posts: 1869 		  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 07:18
Originally posted by JanusRook

Evolutionary theory does not contradict the theological teachings of the Catholic church

Are you sure? Humans having same ancestors with apes do not contradict with your church?

Originally posted by JanusRook

Perhaps in order for humanity to exist it was necessary for the dinosaurs to exist first.

Cool conclusion. The point is, dinosaurs were more far more significant.

Originally posted by JanusRook

Do you really have proof there is existence elsewhere? Proof now, not likelihood.....

'Existence' is not a synonym of 'life'.

Originally posted by Anton

Animals have souls to me.

What about plants, unicellulars etc.?

Originally posted by JanusRook

Actually......according to Big Bang Theory there is no "center of the universe"

Thanks, that's quite enough for my argument.

Originally posted by Anton

I was particularly interested in creation of life and do not find scientific explanation convincing.

That tells more about you than scientific explanation, if you ask me.



Edited by Feanor - 10-Aug-2007 at 07:35
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Anton View Drop Down
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 07:19
Originally posted by HEROI

Take a look at this,your reply has no conction to what i have posted.I have answered a questin before put foward by another member.And my answer is a self-evident fact,which has absolutely nothing to do with what you have posted.
 
Looks like I didn't understand you indeed. But that's your fault, I might better formulate your thoughts. Look at your question number three for instance.
 
Because religion demands our   ,intelectual,phisical,spiritual freedoms.Thats why it must first satisfy our logical reasoning.Otherwise why does one belive in a religion??????????
 
For a person who is solicitous about his "intellectual freedom" you use available information too frivolously. Process it first and then use it and share with us.
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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 07:20
If you are suporting the theory that religion has no questions to answer then my answer to that is that it surely has questions to answer.
Because,religion demads the intelectual,phisical and spiritual freedom of the human being,and to donate this to just anbody who asks for it is not enough is it??????????
One should rapresent the human with all explanations that satisfy the logical reasons of beliving and sacrificing your present and future to something  that is real,otherwise you might end up donating what you will probably not have again.
 
That is were i stand,i think is fair enough.
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Anton View Drop Down
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 07:32
Originally posted by Feanor


What about plants, unicellulars etc.?
Too.
 
 
 

Thanks, that's quite enough for my argument.
That was not my argument.
 
 
 
That tells more about you then scientific explanation, if you ask me.
 
And Einstein, Chain, Schrödinger, Plank, Carrel, Murray, Eccles, and many others? Wink 
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Lmprs View Drop Down
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Posts: 1869 		  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 07:38
Originally posted by Anton

Too.

Unicellulars have souls? That's great. What about a human then? Does she / he have just one soul or as much as the number of her / his cells?

Originally posted by Anton

That was not my argument.

I always screw up when quoting, sorry.

Originally posted by Anton

And Einstein, Chain, Schrdinger, Plank, Carrel, Murray, Eccles,and many others?

Hehe, that's possible, but you are just religion - biased in my opinion.



Edited by Feanor - 10-Aug-2007 at 07:49
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 07:47
Originally posted by HEROI

One should rapresent the human with all explanations that satisfy the logical reasons of beliving and sacrificing your present and future to something  that is real,otherwise you might end up donating what you will probably not have again.
 
Use your logical reasoning to explain me creation of first molecules of DNA, proteins, lipids. Explain me what conditions are needed to create those molecules. Please do not cite Miller's experiment it does not explain anything apart from simple low molecular weight molecules.  
Then using this logical reasoning explain me how were they organized in a single cell. You can also calculate the probabilities of those processes and make some conclusions about a time needed to create a single cell. After thinking a bit on these simple questions you will realize that Scientific explanation looks pretty much like Church explanation -- they are both questionable.
 
And finally, who is forcing you, personally, to be religious in 21st century?  Who is raping your mind and encroach upon your mental freedom?
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Anton View Drop Down
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 07:51
Originally posted by Feanor

Unicellulars have souls? That's great. What about a human then? Does she / he have just one soul or as much as the number of her / his cells?
 
Two pints of beer is still a beer. LOL
 



Hehe, that's possible, but you are just religion - biased in my opinion.
Might be. That is why I brought much more known people than me Smile But you make too fast conclusions. That might be your problem.
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Posts: 1869 		  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 08:05
Originally posted by Anton

Use your logical reasoning to explain me creation of first molecules of DNA, proteins, lipids. Explain me what conditions are needed to create those molecules.

Quantum mechanics rendered Newton's laws and classical physics obsolete in a way. Only another scientific theory / experiment can replace Miller, not a metaphysical object such as god.

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Posts: 2419 		  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 08:09

Are you sure? Humans having same ancestors with apes do not contradict with your church?


Um?.....yes.....


'Existence' is not a synonym of 'life'


You know what I meant. Anyway, I was trying to elude to intelligent life.


Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.

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Anton View Drop Down
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 08:12
Originally posted by Feanor

Quantum mechanics rendered Newton's laws and classical physics obsolete in a way.
 
I will remind you that halv of those religious scientists were involved in creation of quantum mechanics.
 
Originally posted by Feanor

Only another scientific theory / experiment can replace Miller, not a metaphysical object such as god.
 
Create it first. Then we will discuss it. Antireligious people's logic is that -- "look your brainwashing stuff cannot explain this and that. Science can. " This is wrong. Science cannot explain it either.
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Posts: 1869 		  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 08:21
Originally posted by Anton

I will remind you that halv of those religious scientists were involved in creation of quantum mechanics.

I know, but that's completely irrelevant. Their personal life had no direct effect on their professional career.

Originally posted by Anton

This is wrong. Science cannot explain it either.

Unlike religion, science is not static and will be able to explain it later.

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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 08:34
Originally posted by Feanor

Unlike religion, science is not static and will be able to explain it later.
 
This kind of hope is baseless. You believe in Science like many others believe in God. There is no difference between you and them.


Edited by Anton - 10-Aug-2007 at 08:35
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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 08:39
Science is constantly in progress,of course it can not answer questions,and it does not pretend to do so.But religion it claims to be an absolute form of sciense,and as i explained to you,and you nor any religious person is not answering is a direct question,dont reply by asking why science can not explain it nither,of course science can not,and does not explain it,but it might in the future,but religion is not,but it shoul explain direct questions,because it limits your intelectual freedom.
 
All those scientist that you mention were not religios,they belived in God,is a masive difference there.God is not contradictory to science,but religion is.Thats what we try to explain.
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Posts: 1869 		  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 08:54
Originally posted by Anton

This kind of hope is baseless. You believe in Science like many others believe in God. There is no difference between you and them.

You are gravely mistaken, I am afraid. Being a metaphysical concept, god cannot be observed / experimented on. That's why science simply ignores it.

God is irrelevant from a scientific point of view. But absence of evidence is not equal to evidence of absence, so science is not atheistic, but nontheistic.

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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 09:03
Originally posted by HEROI

Science is constantly in progress,of course it can not answer questions,and it does not pretend to do so.But religion it claims to be an absolute form of sciense,and as i explained to you,and you nor any religious person is not answering is a direct question,dont reply by asking why science can not explain it nither,of course science can not,and does not explain it,but it might in the future,but religion is not,but it shoul explain direct questions,because it limits your intelectual freedom.
 
All those scientist that you mention were not religios,they belived in God,is a masive difference there.God is not contradictory to science,but religion is.Thats what we try to explain.
 
Where did you take this crap about limiting of intellectual freedom? Show me an example of such a limiting. Schrödinger or Max Plank were limited in their intellectual freedom? Have you read them? I read. Althoug I understood some 5-10 percent, the thing I got is that their logic (especially with the case of Plank) is far from being limited by something or somebody. And Heroi, from your posts I realize that intellectual freedom for you is using information in your interests without critical thinking. God forbid me from that kind of freedom!
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Anton View Drop Down
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 09:11
Originally posted by Feanor

You are gravely mistaken, I am afraid. Being a metaphysical concept, god cannot be observed / experimented on. That's why science simply ignores it.
God is irrelevant from a scientific point of view. But absence of evidence is not equal to evidence of absence, so science is not atheistic, but nontheistic.
 
That is demagogy. Science and Religion are two different ways of attempt to understand the being. Science is majorly based on logic whereas religious way of understanding is insight and feelings. Both ways are valid and none of them cannot be completely succesfull, sort of speak. You have many other ways of understanding of the being too -- arts, music, theatre, novels etc. etc. etc. They are not based on logic either. But somehow you are not willing to criticize them I suppose.
 
What I wrote is demagogy too LOL
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Posts: 1869 		  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 10:08
What demagogy? I am dialectical materialist and positive atheist, but I'm not manipulating any facts to hjack science.
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 10:14
Originally posted by Feanor

What demagogy? I am dialectical materialist and positive atheist, but I'm not manipulating any facts to hjack science.
 
Poor you Wink  Who is manipulating facts?


Edited by Anton - 10-Aug-2007 at 10:14
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