QuoteReplyTopic: For you religious nuts: Do babies have souls? Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 22:41
Originally posted by Zagros
Because I have observed it. Thus it is obvious, we
start with minimum cognitive functions; babies' cognitive functions ARE
literally non-existent except for the preprogrammed/instinctual
survival functions of the mind. Our state of cognitive
consciousness is considerably greater than that of any baby or toddler
because we have grown up and with that our consciousness has
developed. In addition, a human's brain is not fully
developed until the late teens.
Babies learn at a much faster rate because they know nothing to
start. Do you expect that you can communicate with a baby in the
afterlife like you would with a more developed human?
The afterlife is a completely different world Zagros you can't apply the same rules to it.
Furtheremore I am aware that our brains take many years to finish
developing, this however does not mean we are not aware of ourselves at
birth. Furtheremore how could you observe a baby not having a
consciusness? How does one learn without the ability to observe what is
going on and learn from it and then aply it to ones circumstances?
[4:1] O people, observe your Lord; the One who created you from one being (soul), and created from it its mate, then spread from the two many men and women. You shall regard GOD, by whom you swear, and regard the parents. GOD is watching over you.
22:5. O people, if you have any doubt about resurrection, (remember that) we created you from dust, and subsequently from a tiny drop, which turns into a hanging (embryo), then it becomes a fetus that is given life or deemed lifeless. We thus clarify things for you. We settle in the wombs whatever we will for a predetermined period.* We then bring you out as infants, then you reach maturity. While some of you die young, others live to the worst age, only to find out that no more knowledge can be attained beyond a certain limit. Also, you look at a land that is dead, then as soon as we shower it with water, it vibrates with life and grows all kinds of beautiful plants
When God created Adam he told the angels to bow down before His creation:
Once I design him, and blow into him from My spirit, you shall fall prostrate before him.
The Soul is the real person.
2:286] GOD never burdens a soulbeyond its means: to its credit is what it earns, and against it is what it commits.
The soul is not the physical body. It came with God's spirit. However, people can wrong or do good for their own soul. The soul matures as the person experiences life. People cannot kill their soul. They can kill their body. The soul may enter a body once a fetus is formed (from 40 days to maturity 35-40 weeks). I would think that babies do have a soul.
Does spirit
or soul mean supernatural? (Meaning beyond the natural or expected state of the
world). Not always. We talk of black spiritual songs. Hey bro! you gotta have
soul! Soul music is part of modern life. The music has soul, the
inner feelings we get by listening. Get on down! Move to the beat brothers
and sisters! Nothing supernatural takes place by hearing the music. The word is
therefore to do with the release, uplifting or freeing of mood, attitude and
feelings. You can feel happy at a party for the spirit of the occasion has
lifted you up rather than dragged you down.
Animals can
be high spirited in the way they move around and a joy to watch. We can
describe ourselves as free spirited meaning we remain ourselves no matter what
goes on around us. If a person is injured or unconscious in an accident they are
said to show fighting spirit by pulling their ordeal.Babies show spirit in seeming very
alert at an early age. We could also use the words character, personality
or charisma and some give the impression of having more life than others.
When a
child is born they are released from the inner world of the mothers womb into
this world we all know and we all came the same way. Many other things happen once born and
hopefully the new child has the survival instinct (or spirit) to grow and constructively learn from
what goes on around them. Is there anything religious what I have said so far?
Ignoring the complexities of the human language. Babies certainly have souls - and complex personalities - from before the day they are born, and exist in the afterlife in whatever form the rest of us do. Which is something no human can answer.
Omar what I'm saying is not just language but what we can all can hear, see, feel, sense and experience. If you have ever seen one person more excited or more competitive than another then you have seen spirit or soul. When you say a baby has a soul, in the religious sense they do but in the secular sense they are alive with all their life before them. The afterlife is a different question. To many life came first, religion came after.
Babies can not have personalities since they dont have consiousnes*,which they develop latter in life,at about 4-5 years old.Having no counsiousnes*,makes their soul invisible,but do they have a soul??????
Babies can not have personalities since they dont have
consiousnes*,which they develop latter in life,at about 4-5 years
old.Having no counsiousnes*,makes their soul invisible,but do they have
a soul??????
I would kindly ask you to prove that babies and children below the age of 4 can not or do not have a consciusness.
I was a picky eater from the time I was born. I refused to breath because it tasted bad. And I clearly remember sneaking a look at a lock when mum wasn't looking when I was about 7 months old. I wanted to figure out how it worked.
Without question babies have both consciousness and personality, from before they are born.
Ignoring the complexities of the human language. Babies certainly have souls - and complex personalities - from before the day they are born, and exist in the afterlife in whatever form the rest of us do. Which is something no human can answer.
That's very true, babies can be very witty, and have a personality beyoned the hardwired instincts of feeding, cyring for food, and diaper changes.
Babies can not have personalities since they dont have consiousnes*,which they develop latter in life,at about 4-5 years old.Having no counsiousnes*,makes their soul invisible,but do they have a soul??????
There are babies that read at the age of two, hardly a thing a creature without a personality can attain.
I did not say that babies have no brain or learning ability.What i meant was self-cousiousness which they certanly dont have when they are born and they continue developing it while growing up and become aware of themselves.I dont expect others to agree with me on that,cause we might end up in a very deep philosophical debate.And we certanly would not agree then,since being an atheist,ones mind is open to all posibilities,and we have to agree that when it comes to beliving in god,one as a human being dont really have to bother making some kind of decisions,they are made for one,one only have to jump at their defence,in a different kind of reasoning then that of an atheist.
We might continue the debate and surely will end up mentioning God ( which even the topic has an theological question) and is there were our logics will lead us to different paths.So i decide to say my opinion in this.
I do belive that babies,dont have self-cousiousness,therefore can not have a personality.If anyone can convince me otherwise it would have to be by an chientific,philosophical point of view,not theological.But of course i welcome an theological explanation.
In order to continue with this debate I think a few definitions would be helpful in clarifying the differences between a few terms of importance. The words, conscious, self-conscious and conscience are defined.
Main Entry: 1conscious Pronunciation: 'kn(t)-sh&s Function: adjective Etymology: Latin conscius, from com- + scire to know 1: perceiving, apprehending, or noticing with a degree of controlled thought or observation <conscious of having succeeded> <was conscious that someone was watching> 2archaic: sharing another's knowledge or awareness of an inward state or outward fact 3: personally felt <conscious guilt> 4: capable of or marked by thought, will, design, or perception
Main Entry: self-conscious Pronunciation: -'kn(t)-sh&s Function: adjective 1 a: conscious of one's own acts or states as belonging to or originating in oneself : aware of oneself as an individual b: intensely aware of oneself : CONSCIOUS <a rising and self-conscious social class>; also: produced or done with such awareness
Main Entry: conscience Pronunciation: 'kn(t)-sh&n(t)s Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin conscientia, from conscient-, consciens, present participle of conscire to be conscious, be conscious of guilt, from com- + scire to know -- more at SCIENCE 1 a: the sense or consciousness of the moral goodness or blameworthiness of one's own conduct, intentions, or character together with a feeling of obligation to do right or be good b: a faculty, power, or principle enjoining good acts c: the part of the superego in psychoanalysis that transmits commands and admonitions to the ego 2archaic: CONSCIOUSNESS 3: conformity to the dictates of conscience : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS 4: sensitive regard for fairness or justice
The following is a medical identification of babies' state of consciousness.
Baby's First Month: States of Consciousness
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As you get to know your baby, you'll soon realize that there are times when he's very alert and active, times when he's watchful but rather passive, and times when he's tired and irritable. You may even try to schedule your daily activities to capitalize on his "up" times and avoid overextending him during the "down" periods. Don't count on this schedule, however. These so-called "states of consciousness" will change dramatically in this first month.
There are actually six states of consciousness through which your baby cycles several times a day. Two are sleep states; the others are waking states.
States of Consciousness in Action
State 1 is deep sleep, when the baby lies quietly without moving and is relatively unresponsive. If you shake a rattle loudly in his ear, he may stir a little, but not much. During lighter, more active sleep (State 2), the same noise will startle him and may awaken him. During this light sleep you can see the rapid movements of his eyes beneath his closed eyelids. He will alternate between these two sleep states, cycling through both of them within a given hour. Sometimes he'll "retreat" into these sleep states when he's overstimulated, as well as when he's physically tired.
As your baby wakes up or starts to fall asleep, he'll go through State 3. His eyes will roll back under drooping eyelids and he may stretch, yawn or jerk his arms and legs. Once awake, he'll move into one of the three remaining states. He may be wide awake, happy and alert but relatively motionless (State 4). Or he may be alert, happy and very active (State 5). Or he may cry and flail himself about (State 6).
If you shake a rattle by your baby's ear when he's happy and alert (States 4 and 5), he'll probably become quiet and turn his face to look for the source of this strange sound. This is the time when he'll appear most responsive to you and the activity around him and be most attentive and involved in play.
In general, it's a mistake to expect much attention from a baby who is crying. At these times he's not receptive to new information or sensations; what he wants instead is comforting. The same rattle that enchanted him when he was happy five minutes earlier will only irritate him and make him more upset when he's crying. As he gets older, you may sometimes be able to distract him with an attractive object or sound so that he stops crying, but at this early age the best way to comfort him usually is to pick him up and hold him.
As your baby's nervous system becomes more developed, he'll begin to settle into a pattern of crying, sleeping, eating and playing that matches your own daily schedule. He may still need to eat every three to four hours, but by the end of the month, he'll be awake for longer periods during the day and be more alert and responsive at those times.
States of Consciousness
State
Description
What Your Baby Does
State 1
Deep sleep
Lies quietly without moving
State 2
Light sleep
Moves while sleeping; startles at noises
State 3
Drowsiness
Eyes start to close; may doze
State 4
Quiet alert
Eyes open wide, face is bright; body is quiet
State 5
Active alert
Face and body move actively
State 6
Crying
Cries, perhaps screams; body moves in very disorganized ways
Main Entry: self-conscious Pronunciation: -'kn(t)-sh&s Function: adjective 1 a: conscious of one's own acts or states as belonging to or originating in oneself : aware of oneself as an individual b: intensely aware of oneself :
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That is what babies dont have,as i have explained on my last post.
For humans to have self-consciousness we would need the mechanical ability for self awareness. Maybe this blurb will shed some light.
A person's part of the cerebral cortex is known as the site of the brain that carries cognitive reason (thought). That part of the cerebrum (forebrain) is the prefrontal cortex. This area of the brain does develope with age. Self-consciousness will be affected by this developement. Other than informative descriptions we really are not saying that the prefrontal cortex is the home of the soul. That is not the connection. However, it does harbor the ability for self awareness.
When does the fetus's brain begin to work?
Generally speaking, the central nervous system (which is composed of the brain and the spinal cord) matures in a sequence from "tail" to head. In just the fifth week after conception, the first synapses begin forming in a fetus's spinal cord. By the sixth week, these early neural connections permit the first fetal movements--spontaneous arches and curls of the whole body--that researchers can detect through ultrasound imaging. Many other movements soon follow--of the limbs (around eight weeks) and fingers (ten weeks), as well as some surprisingly coordinated actions (hiccuping, stretching, yawning, sucking, swallowing, grasping, and thumb-sucking). By the end of the first trimester, a fetus's movement repertoire is remarkably rich, even though most pregnant women can feel none of it. (Most women sense the first fetal movements around eighteen weeks of pregnancy.)
The second trimester marks the onset of other critical reflexes: continuous breathing movements (that is, rhythmic contractions of the diaphragm and chest muscles) and coordinated sucking and swallowing reflexes. These abilities are controlled by the brainstem, which sits above the spinal cord but below the higher, more recently-evolved cerebral cortex. The brainstem is responsible for many of our body's most vital functions--heart rate, breathing, and blood pressure. It is largely mature by the end of the second trimester, which is when babies first become able to survive outside the womb.
Last of all to mature is the cerebral cortex, which is responsible for most of what we think of as mental life--conscious experience, voluntary actions, thinking, remembering, and feeling. It has only begun to function around the time gestation comes to an end. Premature babies show very basic electrical activity in the primary sensory regions of the cerebral cortex--those areas that perceive touch, vision, and hearing--as well as in primary motor regions of the cerebral cortex. In the last trimester, fetuses are capable of simple forms of learning, like habituating (decreasing their startle response) to a repeated auditory stimulus, such as a loud clap just outside the mother's abdomen. Late-term fetuses also seem to learn about the sensory qualities of the womb, since several studies have shown that newborn babies respond to familiar odors (such as their own amniotic fluid) and sounds (such as a maternal heartbeat or their own mother's voice). In spite of these rather sophisticated abilities, babies enter the world with a still-primitive cerebral cortex, and it is the gradual maturation of this complex part of the brain that explains much of their emotional and cognitive maturation in the first few years of life.
In Islam the process of thought is described in a few verses. I've picked some for discussion purposes. Don't want to make this debate too theological but a few references will help explain my line of reasoning in describing human cognition. It's relation to self-determination and self-awareness.
First a few verses that mention the word "thought"
.
74:18 He thought and he analyzed. 41:22 And there was no way you could hide from the testimony of your own hearing, or your eyes, or your skins. In fact, you thought that God was unaware of much of what you do. 20:54 Eat and raise your livestock, in that are signs for those of thought.
Next is a verse that locates the area of thought.
96:10 A servant from reaching out? 96:11 Have you seen if he was being guided, 96:12 Or he ordered righteousness? 96:13 Have you seen if he lied and turned away? 96:14 Did he not know that God can see? 96:15 Alas, if he does not cease, We will strike the frontal lobe. 96:16 A frontal lobe which lies and errs.
or this translation:
No! If he does not stop, We will take him by the naseyah (front of the head), a lying, sinful naseyah (front of the head)! (Quran, 96:15-16)
The area of the prefrontal cortex (part of the cerebrum) is responsible for planning, motivating, and initiating good and sinful behavior and is responsible for the telling of lies or the speaking of truth.
Ok, personally i have a question that theology does not have the answer for.I am including the usual suspects here ( Christianity and Islam)
My opinion was that babies do not have Self-counsciousnes, which is suported scientificaly,as is in the post of SEKO above.( note ,have a look at the definition of the word) Therefore they dont have a personality,(my opinion on that is that what apears as personality is an reflection of the parents personality inherited by the babie,since a babie is as a matter of fact a phisical part of his parents,but lets stick to the topic) and that makes their soul invisible,but wether the soul exists????????
We will know when this question is answered.So here comes my question.
AN OLD APE HAS THE SAME SELF-COUNSCIOUSNES AS AN 4 YEARS OLD HUMAN BABIE,DOES THAT MAKE THE APE,WHO IS JUST AS SELF AWARE OF ITS EXISTANCE AS THE BABIE IS,AND RESPOSIBLE OF ITS ACTIONS JUST THE SAME AS THE BABIE,SO DOES THAT APE HAS A SOUL?
IF YES--------- WHY ? WHERE IS IT MENTIONED IN RELIGION,AND WHEN.
IF NOT ----------------WHYYYY,THE OLD APE IS PROVEN TO BE AS MUCH OF AN LIVING CREATION OF NATURE AS TO SCIENTIFICALY QUALIFY AS AN 4 YEARS OLD HUMAN BABIE.
PS.. You didn't answer my question Zagros - how or when do we qualify for having a soul - is it age, IQ or level of education?
Sounds sarcastic, that's why.
I believe the most widely acknowledged perception or definition of "soul" is the disembodied spirit of a dead human. As follows, only the soul gets an afterlife - the body (with its brain/intellect) remains here.
Well in that case the spirit has an intellect meaning that a baby spends its entire existence with the intellect of a baby.
If soul is connected to intellect doesnt that just weaken the case for a soul?
I mean if a soul is made of supernatural energy, a substance that is beyond natural observation, then its development would be independant of natural influences and would only be subject to the rules set down by its supernatural origin, or its creator.
By connecting a soul to intellect is nothing more than just confusing your subconscious with "soul".
Well, this is my point. So what are we supposed to believe here?
What is a soul? Is it just an energy force? Our body is the appliance and our soul is the electricity? That I can accept, it makes sense, but then again this energy cannot be self aware if it has no intellect...
Because I have observed it. Thus it is obvious, we start with minimum cognitive functions; babies' cognitive functions ARE literally non-existent except for the preprogrammed/instinctual survival functions of the mind. Our state of cognitive consciousness is considerably greater than that of any baby or toddler because we have grown up and with that our consciousness has developed. In addition, a human's brain is not fully developed until the late teens.
Babies learn at a much faster rate because they know nothing to start. Do you expect that you can communicate with a baby in the afterlife like you would with a more developed human?
The afterlife is a completely different world Zagros you can't apply the same rules to it.
Should I demand proof?
Furtheremore I am aware that our brains take many years to finish developing, this however does not mean we are not aware of ourselves at birth. Furtheremore how could you observe a baby not having a consciusness? How does one learn without the ability to observe what is going on and learn from it and then aply it to ones circumstances?
Regards, Praetor.
You're completely misconstruing what I said - I stated that a baby does not have a consciousness beyond that of crying, eating and pooing and judging by Seko's posty it appears that i am 100% spot on. The point is, that if a baby dies within the first year, its soul will be of no more significance than that of a new born kitten.
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