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For you religious nuts: Do babies have souls?

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: For you religious nuts: Do babies have souls?
    Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 17:06

So, we are traditionally led to believe that when we die we either go to heaven or hell or some such place... though in what state? As a consciousness?  Well, most cultists would contend that we would either descend or ascend in that state.  So what about babies?  They have no consciousness beyond that encompassing feeding, pooing, sleeping, feeding, pooing and sleeping.  Are they doomed to spend eternity in such a state? Without knowing wtf is going on... ever?

I once confounded a pair of Canadian missionaries with that question... so much so that they had to seek a higher councel from a more learned theologist. Ahan.
 
I believe Islam addresses this confoundment in the most satisfactory manner in that it simply says that the after-life is beyond our comprehension as human beings since our current mode is intended for life in this Earthly existence alone.  Clever retort or is that simply how it is?
 
 
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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 17:34
Religions are nothing but huge masses of inconsistency.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 17:36
That's a pretty good line Feanor. I will also agree to it. When has a large group of people ever been consistant anyway?
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 17:54
Yes, but let us concentrate on this one facet, that of souls and the afterlife.
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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 18:06
Idealism deals with absolutes. I don't think religions accept the fact that the consciousness of a human being can be formed and develop over time.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 18:17
Zagros, you sure do come up with some good ones. I would think that we need a conscience in order to experience the great Consience. Maybe babies will have the ultimate in pacifiers instead. Who knows? Since I'm not sure I'll ask my postman and see what he thinks.
 
Feanor, most social programs and theories that lead them are bound by certain absolute beliefs. Even religions can allow wiggle room for private interpretation.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 18:29
let me know how you get on :)
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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 18:30
Originally posted by Seko

Even religions can allow wiggle room for private interpretation.

Replace 'can' with 'have to' and we are there.

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 18:40

A very good point.

I would say that all religously based organizations do have regulations that are the expected norm and those that are not. If a person falls in between they are outcast heathens. Since getting others to listen up and follow is the hard part, people just go ahead and start up there own religion. However, living a religious life based on one's idea of faith and acknowledgement to a higher power leads to more wiggle room.
 
 Sometimes we should let people decide for themselves and let the cookie crumble where it may. In fact I'm starting my own brand of religion. It's called cookie cutters annonymous.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 18:45

It's interesting, for I had actually given this some thought back in the day (along with many other divine inconsistencies) until a local 'wise muslim man'  told me that once we all acsended to heaven we would all be 33 years old. How god knows what a baby will be like in three decades is none of my business.



Edited by Haydar - 07-Aug-2007 at 18:45
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 21:16

We created man from an extract of clay, then we made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then we made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing and blood clot), then we made the alaqah into a mudgah (chewed-like substance)... (Quran, 23:12-14) 

In Sura 17 Allah created man from clots of blood. We could assume by the statements the human spirit enters into the body at birth into the world, but its not for me to say that's for the theologians.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 00:00

In Islam, children are sinless. I can't speak for the other religions.

 

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  Quote Praetor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 06:28
Originally posted by Zagros

So, we are traditionally led to believe that when we die we either go to heaven or hell or some such place... though in what state? As a consciousness?  Well, most cultists would contend that we would either descend or ascend in that state.  So what about babies?  They have no consciousness beyond that encompassing feeding, pooing, sleeping, feeding, pooing and sleeping.  Are they doomed to spend eternity in such a state? Without knowing wtf is going on... ever?


Excuse me for bieng blunt but how do you know that babies do not have a consciusness (aside from the whole eating, sleeping and pooing thing)? Furtheremore Babies learn at a MUCH faster rate then the rest of us, I doubt one could learn how to speak without a consciusness.

Regards, Praetor.

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 15:42
Because I have observed it.  Thus it is obvious, we start with minimum cognitive functions; babies' cognitive functions ARE literally non-existent except for the preprogrammed/instinctual survival functions of the mind.   Our state of cognitive consciousness is considerably greater than that of any baby or toddler because we have grown up and with that our consciousness has developed.   In addition, a human's brain is not fully developed until the late teens.
 
Babies learn at a much faster rate because they know nothing to start.  Do you expect that you can communicate with a baby in the afterlife like you would with a more developed human?


Edited by Zagros - 08-Aug-2007 at 15:44
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 17:42
With all respect Zagros - I think you are confusing soul with intellect (cognitive consciousness), which are two very different things.
 
Our state of cognitive consciousness is considerably greater than that of any baby or toddler because we have grown up and with that our consciousness has developed.   In addition, a human's brain is not fully developed until the late teens.
 
In your opinion, how much (and in what unit) do we need to "develop" our consciousness before we qualify for having a soul?
 
 
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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 19:15
Originally posted by Northman

I think you are confusing soul with intellect (cognitive consciousness), whichare two very different things.

One of them being a myth, they are indeed quite different.

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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 19:29
A myth to some - very real to even more - still very different to all.
 
 
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 19:33
No, they are intertwined, what is a soul without a sense of what is what?  
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 20:10
I believe the most widely acknowledged perception or definition of "soul" is the disembodied spirit of a dead human. As follows, only the soul  gets an afterlife - the body (with its brain/intellect) remains here.
 
In the afterlife, everyone is equal - no need for an intellectual elite.
 
PS..  You didn't answer my question Zagros - how or when do we qualify for having a soul - is it age, IQ or level of education? 
 
 
 


Edited by Northman - 08-Aug-2007 at 20:13
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  Quote AyKurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 20:12
If soul is connected to intellect doesnt that just weaken the case for a soul?
I mean if a soul is made of supernatural energy, a substance that is beyond natural observation, then its development would be independant of natural influences and would only be subject to the rules set down by its supernatural origin, or its creator.
By connecting a soul to intellect is nothing more than just confusing your subconscious with "soul".
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
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