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Honor Killing in Italy |
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morticia 
Sultan 
Retired AE Editor Joined: 09-Aug-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2077 |
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 Topic: Honor Killing in ItalyPosted: 06-Aug-2007 at 15:53 |
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Another honor killing. This time, it involves Hina Saleem - a 20 year old woman who was killed by her father because she did not behave like a good Muslim girl (as stated by her mother, who was in Pakistan at the time of the killing). In fact, her father told police, My daughter was a prostitute, living with that Italian. I killed her out of rage.
It seems that Hina lived with an Italian, Guiseppe Tampini, and worked as a waitress in a bar. After deliberating her western-style behavior and after she refused to submit to an arranged marriage, her family decided to kill her. How is it possible that a father can think killing his daughter will bring honor to his family? How can a father feel so much resentment and rage towards his daughter to resort to such violence? I dont think I could ever understand that kind of reasoning. May she rest in peace. 
Source: http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/3268 
Hima Saleem |
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"Morty
Trust in God: She will provide." -- Emmeline Pankhurst |
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Maharbbal
Sultan
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 08-Mar-2006 Location: Paris Online Status: Offline Posts: 2120 |
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Posted: 06-Aug-2007 at 17:09 |
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poor soul
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I am a free donkey!
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Constantine XI
Suspended 
Suspended Joined: 01-May-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5711 |
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Posted: 06-Aug-2007 at 19:11 |
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Another one? It really just beggars comprehension.
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Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 09:25 |
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Most murders are domestic affairs gone wrong. A few more details will be needed before you can say anything with certainty.
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morticia
Sultan
Retired AE Editor Joined: 09-Aug-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2077 |
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Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 14:47 |
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Sparten, I don't think there could ever be any logical explanation that I would comprehend for a father killing a daughter due to a lifestyle or culture. Even if she was a thief, a low-life, a crack-smoking lowest form of existence, it still does not give her father the right to KILL her because he disagrees with her lifestyle. If he didn't want to have to deal with it, then he should have never brought her into this world.
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"Morty
Trust in God: She will provide." -- Emmeline Pankhurst |
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Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 14:58 |
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Morty I agree. The point is that these affairs are rarely as simple as the media likes to portray them. Humans are violent creature and in our anger we often do things that we regret. Family disagreement are the number one cause of murders in most countries, murder are seldom pre-planned, they are usually spur of the moment things. And the media in my experience rarely gets it right in such cases.
"My daughter was a prostitute, living with that Italian. I killed her out of rage.
I don't know the facts of the case, but such a statment leads itself to a variety of senarios. |
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Gharanai
Arch Duke 
Afghan Empire Joined: 26-Jan-2006 Location: Afghanistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 1515 |
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Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 15:28 |
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Well first of all I feel very much sorry for her life and don't know how do these people call themselves muslim, as Allah almighty is the one who has given soul to the human body and only he has the right to take it back, but still they go against their own religion.
I do agree that if the words of her father who says; "My daughter was a prostitute, living with that Italian. I killed her out of rage. is true then he had a reason but no right to kill her, he could have just taken his name (which represents her) from her (what is called in our region HAAQ), so that no more she represented him.
These issues do take place alot in our regions (Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, even sometimes Iran) and I simply don't know that when will these people understand the value of life.
Still Almight knows who is right and who is wrong and may he judge the best for her.
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Lmprs
Arch Duke
Joined: 30-Dec-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1869 |
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Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 18:00 |
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What do you mean by that? |
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morticia
Sultan
Retired AE Editor Joined: 09-Aug-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2077 |
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Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 15:00 |
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I understand you, Gharanai. There are always alternative measures which can be taken in such a situation. He could have disowned her (as you stated) or never see her again, etcetera....but to KILL her out of rage is unforgivable. Because he took her life, I hope he spends the rest of his life in jail (which is far better than being dead). Edited by morticia - 08-Aug-2007 at 15:00 |
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"Morty
Trust in God: She will provide." -- Emmeline Pankhurst |
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Gharanai
Arch Duke
Afghan Empire Joined: 26-Jan-2006 Location: Afghanistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 1515 |
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Posted: 09-Aug-2007 at 14:31 |
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Well dear Feanor,
What I ment by that is that guess if you find your spouse cheating you and dating or hanging around with someone else what would you do....?
I am sure you are not going to kill her but to divorce her.
The word which I was missing was wonderfully stated by dear Morticia which is DISOWNING.
The man could had just disowned her.
Wish you got what I ment...
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HEROI
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Joined: 06-Jul-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 468 |
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Posted: 09-Aug-2007 at 15:04 |
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I understand gharanai,a reason can be anything,but a reason should always be balanced with the right to act.
In this case being from a comunity which is sensitive of this particular behaviour (which i am sure inside the comunity has complications for the family aswell) there is a reason,but the action which was taken in this case was despicable,horrid,completely unbalanced.
The bad thing is the way media portray this isolated events,i dont want to go to much into that because is a very long and hard argument,but at least dont portray the killer as Muslim,but as a Criminal,there is a name for someone who comits a murder,is a murderer and a criminal.etc etc we would go out of topic.
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Me pune,me perpjekje.
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Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 03:53 |
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I am sorry to hear that. No one has the right to take life.
Morticia, you said; "How is it possible that a father can think killing his daughter will bring honor to his family? How can a father feel so much resentment and rage towards his daughter to resort to such violence? I dont think I could ever understand that kind of reasoning. May she rest in peace." I can understand mind-set of the father and the family. It is not about "Honor". Also, It is not about "Religion". In East the society is "Family" oriented. One person is not independent of his/her family. He/she represent his/her family to society and acts as/like an arm of family. When he/she does act ways the society shuns, it does bring shame to him/her, but also to his/her family. It was due to family members to clean(!) this attack committed to their family. |
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morticia
Sultan
Retired AE Editor Joined: 09-Aug-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2077 |
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Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 15:33 |
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Welcome to the women's forum, White-Wolf. You're right -it's not about Religion, not about Honor, not about East vs West...it's about a moral and human obligation from one human to another. I can't understand how anyone can bring a daughter into this world to then kill her because she rebels against her family. These are the same men that probably condemn abortions..but, isn't killing his daughter producing the same end result?
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"Morty
Trust in God: She will provide." -- Emmeline Pankhurst |
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Serge L
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Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Location: Italy Online Status: Offline Posts: 485 |
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Posted: 11-Aug-2007 at 06:41 |
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This case is very well known here, and I am afraid it's as plain and simple as originally presented by Morticia. The girl de facto rejected his family religion, values and lifestile, embracing the Italian one. His father (who confessed his guilty) menaced her and, likely with the help of all his family, including the women, who were not in Italy that day, but knew the intentions of the masculine family members, and likely helped to arrange thing ambushed the girl, sliced her throat and buried her in the garden. A trial is still pending, and many points are still to be ascertained. In addition, the girl fiancee opposed the will of the family to bury the girl in her original country, and aked to have her buried in Brescia -- legal decision is waited also opn this account. This fact stirred big tension against Muslim immigrants here in Italy.
You can find more details in the following two articles, one dated last autumn, when the fact occurred, and one recent update.
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morticia
Sultan
Retired AE Editor Joined: 09-Aug-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2077 |
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Posted: 14-Aug-2007 at 10:00 |
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WOW! Thanks for all that info, Serge!
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"Morty
Trust in God: She will provide." -- Emmeline Pankhurst |
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Serge L
Baron
Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Location: Italy Online Status: Offline Posts: 485 |
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Posted: 14-Aug-2007 at 17:23 |
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You are welcome |
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Al Jassas
Arch Duke
Joined: 07-Aug-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1810 |
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Posted: 14-Aug-2007 at 21:56 |
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Since I am from the culture that you talk about and since I am extremely conservative in my views, more than you would ever think, I can claim that as an insider I can shed some light this barbaric ritual.
First and understand this carefully, Islam has nothing to do with honor killings, they are murder plain and simple and no place in Islam do you find this justifiable. when one of the prophet's companions asked what would happen if he found his wife having sex with another man and he killed her the prophet said that he would be killed for killing his wife eventhough death is the punishment of married adultrers. the reason for that is that only the government under the order of a court of law has the power to end one's life in Islamic law.
Unfortunatly people (especially uneducated ones) think that honor killings are an integral part of Islam because Islam protects the honor and reputation of indivisuals. Pre-Islamic honor keeping rituals continued through Islamic countries after being portrayed as "acceptable" by islam by the governors, not the scholars of Islam. What makes the matter worse are political opportunist SOB's of the "Muslim" Brotherhood who wear the garb of Islam, defend honor killing practices and laws, campaigning to completely legalize murder by law (by which you can kill with just a huch and even after your relative has been proven to be a virgin you will still be released after a couple of months and welcomed as a hero) despite the fact that they know that no sane muslim schoalr who deserves to be called that name no matter how conservative he is will ever support their claim that honor killings legal in Islam.
The second important thing about honor killings is the position towards women amongst those societies especially amongst "educated" men. Women in those societies are nothing more than baby-making sex-giving cooking machines, no more no less. Anyone who tries to reverse that order and give women their rights given to them in Islam let alone those given in secular laws will face opposition. A friend of mine who is studying for a Master's degree in my Uni told me that when the Preacher of the mosque of his hometown in nothern syria (near turkey) mentioned in the Friday sermon that women had the right to collect their inheritance and forbidding them from it (which was practiced there) was a great sin the "educated" elite of the village who were spending the weekend there (including Uni Professors, doctors, engineers and teachers) brought him down before he finished and gave him a good beating. When his 80 year old granny heard that women in Saudi Arabia inheret by law she was appauled despite she was educated and read the Quran which specifically states that women have a right to inheretance.
Third and most interesting is that honor killings are not common in lets say Egypt, Morocco and Algeria as they are common in the mideast countries (excluding Saudi Arabia and Yemen) and that honor killings were common in countries that have nothing to with Islam (Italy and Spain). The reasons are very complex and needs an anthropologist to do such a study which I am not.
Thank You
Al-Jassas ibn Murrah
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Gharanai
Arch Duke
Afghan Empire Joined: 26-Jan-2006 Location: Afghanistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 1515 |
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Posted: 15-Aug-2007 at 15:20 |
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I would totaly agree with dear Al-Jassas and he very well portraied the difference between culture and religion.
I mean lets just take an example of my own country Afghanistan which is an Islamic country but still run by its tradition mostly, and one shall never mix the religion with the culture and tradition or the way of thinking of a specific person.
In that case then the muslims may also say that as Hitler was a christian, then the entire christain community has acted genocide, and they are the killers and murderers, but now one single person, culture or community may not represent the entire religion of that community.
In pre-Islamic Arabia, this act was a very common act, they even buried their girls alive, and this was not only in Arabia but many other countries of Asia and rest of the world.
But it was Islam that introduce the equal rights of men and women and desolved this long tradition of the Arabians (burying girls alive).
It is one of Hazrat Mohammad (SAW) sayings where he says; "Allah loves he who loves and looks after family especially the girls."
So if the founder of Islam says those words then how in the world may one attach the act to the religion.
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Gharanai
Arch Duke
Afghan Empire Joined: 26-Jan-2006 Location: Afghanistan Online Status: Offline Posts: 1515 |
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Posted: 15-Aug-2007 at 15:52 |
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Here is a short and brief note on Honor Killing, the entire article was submitted as an assignment of my Psychology subject and it's the briefing of it..... writing this because I don't want to get got up in Timotheus's case... lol. ++++
Honor Killings
Honor killing, is nowadays one of the biggest social problems of the world but what do we really know about it, and how much do we know about it?
The word Honor means reputation, high respect, recognition and distinction. While as we all know that killing means to execute ones live. So overall Honor Killing would refer to execute ones live for others distinction, reputation and respect. Honor crimes are acts of violence, usually murder, mostly committed by male family members predominantly against female relatives, who are perceived to have shamed their family through a given manner. A woman can be targeted by (individuals within) her family for a variety of reasons, including: refusing to enter into an arranged marriage, being the victim of a sexual assault, seeking a divorce even from an abusive husband or (allegedly) committing adultery. The mere perception that a woman has behaved in a specific way to "dishonor" her family, is sufficient to trigger an attack. Most "honor" killings of women happens in Muslim countries, but as far as scholars and intellectuals are concerned they all know that Islam was the first ever religion which strictly stood for women rights and stopped the killing of innocent women and girls. So overall we can say that it is not due to Islam but due to the strict traditions of most countries. Most people think that these sorts of actions are practiced only in Asian and Middle Eastern countries but thats not true, the fact is that it basically originated from Ancient Roman times (1800BC), where the pater familias, or senior male within a household, retained the right to kill an unmarried but sexually active daughter or an adulterous wife. Then it was acted in Ancient Babylon (1700 BC) where The Code of Hammurabi (one of the earliest sets of laws ever discovered) said that the eldest man in a family has the right to have any of the families girl or woman executed.
A quick search brings up countries like In more of these countries, the only way the authorities can protect women in danger to be "honor-killed", is sending them to jail. So while the victims are in jail, the men walks free. Only very few men actually are sentenced for this crime, or similar crimes against women. |
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morticia
Sultan
Retired AE Editor Joined: 09-Aug-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2077 |
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Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 15:24 |
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Somewhere along the line, "Honor Killing" became a way of life for many around the world. Most of the "honor killing" acts which I've read about are done with the knowledge and consent of the older women in the involved families. It's the only way these women have ever known for centuries, therefore, education of women is key to controlling this barbaric tradition. Once the elder women start condemning said acts, traditions will gradually change (hopefully for the betterment of women). Everyone wants to put the blame on religion or on customs or family traditions, etc. - Hogwash! Men who commit these acts are no better than a common criminal and should pay a high price for their actions. I just don't know how they can sleep at night with a clear conscience! If a man is able to commit murder within his own family, I'd hate to think of what he's capable of doing to an outsider!
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"Morty
Trust in God: She will provide." -- Emmeline Pankhurst |
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