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62nd anniversary of Hiroshima
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Justinian View Drop Down
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Posts: 1399 		  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 62nd anniversary of Hiroshima
    Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 00:21
I agree that the Japanese were finished, but we were absolutely determined to end the war as soon as possible if we hadn't dropped the bomb we would have invaded right away to end the war, defeat japan soundly and perhaps show our strength to the soviets.  The problem would be just maintaining a blockade against japan until they capitulated, the public were so anti-japanese (concentration camps of japanese americans) they would never have stood for us sitting back and waiting until the japanese surrendered.  We were going to demand surrender and if rejected invade.  Someone had posted what are demands were, as he/she said they were rejected out of hand so we had no choice but to drop the bombs or invade the mainland.
You do bring up good points though.


Edited by Justinian - 08-Aug-2007 at 00:23
"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann

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Anton View Drop Down
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 04:18
Originally posted by Justinian

I should add that I probably never would have existed if the bombs hadn't been dropped and we had been forced to invade the mainland


This seems to be the major benefit that humanity got from Hirosima and Nagasaki bombing
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 04:22
Originally posted by Leonidas



While Japan needs to go a  very long way in understanding its own dark past, i am equally chilled by the shrugging of shoulders 'they had it coming' attitude to the mass incineration of civilians.



Americans, Britts or Russians didn't even start their ways of understanding their dark past.
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 05:10
It is funny, Japan surrendered because of fear A-Bomb created over civilians..
 
Can we call this as terrorism? Mass scale terror?(Main aim of terrorism is to kill civilians and create fear..)
 
If not, what is difference?
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 08:58
Originally posted by Mortaza

It is funny, Japan surrendered because of fear A-Bomb created over civilians..
 
Can we call this as terrorism? Mass scale terror?(Main aim of terrorism is to kill civilians and create fear..)
 
If not, what is difference?
I made a very similar parallel in another thread, ages ago.

Hence why I had added a link to the UN website that has an proposed definition in a previous post. Here is the most succinct and earliest definition from the thirties from that site

1. League of Nations Convention (1937):

"All criminal acts directed against a State and intended or calculated to create a state of terror in the minds of particular persons or a group of persons or the general public".


the updated and expanded definition

4. Academic Consensus Definition:

"Terrorism is an anxiety-inspiring method of repeated violent action, employed by (semi-) clandestine individual, group or state actors, for idiosyncratic, criminal or political reasons, whereby - in contrast to assassination - the direct targets of violence are not the main targets. The immediate human victims of violence are generally chosen randomly (targets of opportunity) or selectively (representative or symbolic targets) from a target population, and serve as message generators. Threat- and violence-based communication processes between terrorist (organization), (imperilled) victims, and main targets are used to manipulate the main target (audience(s)), turning it into a target of terror, a target of demands, or a target of attention, depending on whether intimidation, coercion, or propaganda is primarily sought" (Schmid, 1988).



Source



Edited by Leonidas - 08-Aug-2007 at 09:01
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Anton View Drop Down
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 09:21
Originally posted by Leonidas



[quote]1. League of Nations Convention (1937):

"All criminal acts directed against a State and intended or calculated to create a state of terror in the minds of particular persons or a group of persons or the general public".


 
Dresden bombing or Hirosima and Nagasaki ideally fit to this determination.
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Posts: 4221 		  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 10:13
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by Leonidas



[quote]1. League of Nations Convention (1937):

"All criminal acts directed against a State and intended or calculated to create a state of terror in the minds of particular persons or a group of persons or the general public".


 
Dresden bombing or Hirosima and Nagasaki ideally fit to this determination.
 
So did the previously mentioned rape of nanking; the unnecessary bombing of Rotterdam; the murder of civilian hostages in France, Russia, Italy and Yugoslavia; the killing of 6,000,000 Jews and millions of other civilians; and also the behavior of Red army troops in Germany in 1945.  How many Red army courts martial are you aware of?
 
The cited document from a League of Nations that was defunct by 1938, and that was never functional anyway doesn't mean anything.  Decent people don't desire these things to happen, but they happened anyway. 
 
What's your point?  Or does your historical knowledge begin in 1945?
 
 


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 08-Aug-2007 at 10:15
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Posts: 4221 		  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 10:32
Originally posted by Mortaza

It is funny, Japan surrendered because of fear A-Bomb created over civilians..
 
Can we call this as terrorism? Mass scale terror?(Main aim of terrorism is to kill civilians and create fear..)
 
If not, what is difference?
 
Nah....psychological warfare.  It all depends on who wins.  Wink
 
Seriously, what is different here from how the Assyrians, or the 7th century Arabs conducted their wars?  Or how Alp Arslan acted after Manzikert?  Or how the Mongols practiced warfare in central Asia and Russia
 
The Romans did it as well at Carthage and Jerusalem and other places.
 
Historically, these are successful tactics, and although cruel and painful, they have worked.  Don't confuse low intensity rules of engagement with total war.  The two are worlds apart.
 
Historians analyze and interpret.  They can't be crippled by moral determination unless they want to become clergymen.
 
It has constantly amazed me how so many here think Genghis Khan is the greatest hero since God, and he was a mass butcher on every level.  He did what every conqueror did.
 
 
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 10:35
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

 
So did the previously mentioned rape of nanking; the unnecessary bombing of Rotterdam; the murder of civilian hostages in France, Russia, Italy and Yugoslavia; the killing of 6,000,000 Jews and millions of other civilians; and also the behavior of Red army troops in Germany in 1945.  How many Red army courts martial are you aware of?
 
Yes yes and yes. But how is it related to particular events discussed in this topic?
 
 
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

What's your point?  Or does your historical knowledge begin in 1945?
 
My point is simple -- what Germans and Japanese did is not a moral excuse of a barbaric behaviour of Americans and Russians. Without this understanding such things will happen in the future.
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Posts: 4221 		  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 10:40
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by pikeshot1600

 
So did the previously mentioned rape of nanking; the unnecessary bombing of Rotterdam; the murder of civilian hostages in France, Russia, Italy and Yugoslavia; the killing of 6,000,000 Jews and millions of other civilians; and also the behavior of Red army troops in Germany in 1945.  How many Red army courts martial are you aware of?
 
Yes yes and yes. But how is it related to particular events discussed in this topic?
 
 
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

What's your point?  Or does your historical knowledge begin in 1945?
 
My point is simple -- what Germans and Japanese did is not a moral excuse of a barbaric behaviour of Americans and Russians. Without this understanding such things will happen in the future.
 
Please see my response to Mortaza.
 
War = barbaric behavior (even by non-barbarians).
 
 
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 11:46
Pike again bin laden will agree with you when he was planing 9/11.
 
Dont you think so?
 
 
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Posts: 3638 		  Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 12:56
Please make a pause...just to remind of all the victims of wars, machinated by capitalists, communists, despots and oppressors of all kinds....
 
 

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Justinian View Drop Down
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Posts: 1399 		  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 17:18
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by Justinian

I should add that I probably never would have existed if the bombs hadn't been dropped and we had been forced to invade the mainland


This seems to be the major benefit that humanity got from Hirosima and Nagasaki bombing
Cheap shot.Ouch  My point was that I was biased in favor of dropping the bomb.  Like I said this argument comes down to whether people think it was right to do a little evil for the greater good or not. 
Was it an act of terrorism?  You certainly have a point to support that, same as for dresden or hamburg.  Any act that is targeted at civilians and has as its goal to inspire terror to achieve exterior motives like surrender would be considered terrorism.  So I would say yes it was terrorism.
"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann

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Posts: 1869 		  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 17:31
Originally posted by Justinian

My point was that I was biased in favor of dropping the bomb. Like I said this argument comes down to whether people think it was right to do a little evil for the greater good or not.

Greater good? What is that? Your existence?

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Justinian View Drop Down
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Posts: 1399 		  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 17:38

Ha, Ha, Ha.  (I admit that is funny) But, no it was that both the japanese and allies would suffer much higher casualties if the bombs hadn't been dropped and the allies had been forced to invade.
"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann

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Mortaza View Drop Down
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 17:44
So you want to tell us that USA think and care about japan people, so she just droped a-bomb over them?
 
Well, sensible.
 
 
 
 


Edited by Mortaza - 08-Aug-2007 at 17:55
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Posts: 1869 		  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 17:54
Originally posted by Justinian

But, no it was that both the japanese and allies would suffer much higher casualties if the bombs hadn't been dropped and the allies had been forced to invade.

You can keep telling that yourself. Anyone with some common sense can see that Americans didn't care about Japanese lives at all.

If they did, they wouldn't nuke Nagasaki just three days after the first bombing. They should have give some time, maybe a week, to Japanese to reconsider.

Edited by Feanor - 08-Aug-2007 at 18:01
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Justinian View Drop Down
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Posts: 1399 		  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 18:09
I didn't say the allies cared about japanese casualties, simply that there would have been much more of them for the japanese.  The allies weren't completely heartless they didn't like the japs but they didn't want to kill every man, woman and child even if thats what they did in hiroshima and nagasaki.  As everyone knows hindsight is 20/20 and dropping the bombs was the right decision.  I stated earlier the allies had no patience to wait the japanese out, they could surrender immediately or we were going to keep dropping bombs on them.  I think someone mentioned it but we were not going to wait them out because the cold war with the soviets had begun.  If we waited the japanese out the russians would already be steamrolling their way to tokyo.  That was the mindset of the high command.

Edited by Justinian - 08-Aug-2007 at 18:15
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Posts: 1869 		  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 18:36
Bombing a hospital is widely accepted as a war crime. Do you agree on this?
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Posts: 4221 		  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 18:38
Originally posted by Mortaza

Pike again bin laden will agree with you when he was planing 9/11.
 
Dont you think so?
 
 
 
Not sure what you are thinking here.
 
 
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