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Foreign support for Apartheid? |
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Kevin 
General 
AE Editor Joined: 27-Apr-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 767 |
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 Topic: Foreign support for Apartheid?Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 23:16 |
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I was looking up info about the nature of foreign support for Apartheid South Africa and it seems I'm having a hard time find some. However how much support for Apartheid South Africa among the International Community? |
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Maharbbal
Sultan 
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 08-Mar-2006 Location: Paris Online Status: Offline Posts: 2120 |
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Posted: 29-Jul-2007 at 04:45 |
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Israel, Rhodesia, I wouldn't be surprised if the South Am dictatorships and some south east asian countries joined in too. Besides I guess the US were not always 100% opposed to the South Af. policies specially in Angola. I guess France and the UK must have supported it once in a while along with the Netherlands, Belgium, Franco and Salazar. Logically China may have been interested to fight Russia once in a while too. Well the only ones for sure are Israel and Rhodesia.
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I am a free donkey!
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Beylerbeyi
Chieftain 
Joined: 02-Aug-2004 Location: Cuba Online Status: Offline Posts: 1355 |
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Posted: 29-Jul-2007 at 13:21 |
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US was the main supporter of the apartheid regime in South Africa. They saw it as a bulwark against popular communist movements in Africa.
While the rest of the world embargoed SA, US traded with them. They had a weapons embargo, but it didn't include 'sensitive equipment' which could be used in weapons production. US companies were not allowed to trade such sensitive equipment with communist countries. Of course SA had a well-developed weapons industry so, the embargo meant nothing as long as sensitive equipment came coming.
In addition to economic support, US supplied SA with invaluable diplmatic support. In the 80's there were attempts in the UN to pass resolutions which condemned terrorism, with the exception of terrorism against racist regimes. Two countries voted against, US and Israel. The reason was US called ANC (African National Congress led by Nelson Mandela) a terrorist organisation, following SA view.
ANC was supported and funded by the Soviet Union. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, US stopped supporting the SA regime, and the regime collapsed.
In addition to the US, Israel also cooperated closely, especially in developing nuclear weapons. I don't know the extent other countries gave support through proxy such as Rhodesia or Israel.
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Kevin
General
AE Editor Joined: 27-Apr-2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 767 |
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Posted: 29-Jul-2007 at 18:38 |
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However there is no evidence that China supported the South Africans,Also the Chinese Goveremnt how train and equip many anti-Aparthied movements.
In addition was there any strong support for thr South African Goverments postion among intellectual,social or business circles? The only group of people here in the US besides the US Goverment(which was covert about alot of it's support for the South African Goverment) was white supremacists and in the UK the only one who could be of any note would be David Irving.
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Guests
Guest 
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Posted: 30-Jul-2007 at 01:56 |
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Pakistan is also believed to have had ties with SA over its nuke programme.
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Eondt
Earl 
Joined: 23-Aug-2006 Location: South Africa Online Status: Offline Posts: 279 |
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Posted: 30-Jul-2007 at 05:00 |
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Hi,
As Beyerbeyli pointed out, South Africa was supported by the West as long as the cold war raged. SA always enjoyed alot of support from the US and the UK wrt trade. South Africa and Israel worked close when it came to weapons development as well as cooporative training sessions for its special forces. Some neighbours in Africa supported the regime because of economic or poitical reasons (thinking Rhodesia, Lesotho, Swaziland, Angola prior to regime change, Namibia etc.) Our first nuclear reactor was built with support from the US.
The old government also had some close ties with Middle Eastern countries. Oil was exchanged for weapons with Iraq during the Iraq/Iran conflict (could it be that the US had something to do with SA choosing Iraq as its partner?).
The ANC was listed as a terrorist organisation in most Western countries (to be fair though, while following an 'armed struggle' policy they really were one).
Eon Edited by Eondt - 30-Jul-2007 at 07:49 |
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Guests
Guest
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Posted: 30-Jul-2007 at 05:42 |
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You need to diffrentiate between covert ties (which were extensive esepcailly with the Anglosphere and the commonwealth) and diplomatic support which was rare.
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Eondt
Earl
Joined: 23-Aug-2006 Location: South Africa Online Status: Offline Posts: 279 |
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Posted: 30-Jul-2007 at 07:54 |
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Very true Sparten. Some of the support were less covert of course, for instance the UK's refusal to implement trade sanctions (there was just too much money to be lost). Apartheid South Africa was effectively isolated though when it came to culture and sport, whether this prolonged or shortened the lifespan of the regime is still debated though.
Open diplomatic support was indeed very rare. The closest that I can think of is the Thatcher government.
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Beylerbeyi
Chieftain
Joined: 02-Aug-2004 Location: Cuba Online Status: Offline Posts: 1355 |
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Posted: 30-Jul-2007 at 12:59 |
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As to China's involvement in SA, I don't know why Maharbbal implied China supported the SA. I never heard that. However, unlike Kevin writes, I also never heard China supporting the anti-apartheid movement.
ANC movement was communist aligned, and it was funded and armed by the USSR.
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elenos
Chieftain
Joined: 13-Jun-2007 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1457 |
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Posted: 30-Jul-2007 at 23:29 |
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A dutch colony where they still speak Africaans and nobody says Holland?
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elenos
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Eondt
Earl
Joined: 23-Aug-2006 Location: South Africa Online Status: Offline Posts: 279 |
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Posted: 31-Jul-2007 at 02:33 |
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If you can legitimise the bombing of churches while services are being conducted then there is something wrong with you, no offence.
Fighters from both sides of the political fence had to apply for amnesty after the end of apartheid in order to escape prosecution by the courts. And most did. I was too young at the time to grasp the meaning of it all but if I look at recordings now, it's pwerful stuff.
There are now one or two people being prosecuted (the first after the amnesty hearing, for failure to apply for amnesty and our National Prosecuting Authority having enough evidence to link them to crimes.
The ANC had as its alliance partners the South Afircan Communist Party and the Congress of South African Trade Unions (also known as the Tri-partheid alliance), hence the support from the USSR. It's ironic that this support from the USSR is also the reason that the Western powers covertly supported the apartheid government, and the apartheid goverment's main propaganda weapon to create fear amongst the local white population and keep them in power.
The ANC itself has always been a party who's members were black intellectuals. Since coming to power, it's leaders has shown a strong inclination towards capitalism (more than the apartheid goverment) and tends to favour the privatisation of state enterprise. If you follow current SA politics you'll know that this is the main source of strife within the government. The SACP and COSATU are continually threatening to withdraw from the alliance and register as a seperate political party because of this.
PS. Elenos - It's "Afrikaans" and what do you mean still? It's a young language only being seperately classified from Dutch in the 20th century. And we don't say Holland because it's not Holland
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elenos
Chieftain
Joined: 13-Jun-2007 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1457 |
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Posted: 31-Jul-2007 at 03:03 |
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Well I was being a little hasty when writing that down, but you seem to have got what I mean. You mean you don't speak Afrikaans anymore? Don't the those who call themselves the Boers still speak it? Holland is part of the Netherlands whatever, but not all of us understand why you guys, other than English speakers, cannot agree on using one name for the one country. Please enlighten us.
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elenos
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Eondt
Earl
Joined: 23-Aug-2006 Location: South Africa Online Status: Offline Posts: 279 |
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Posted: 31-Jul-2007 at 06:34 |
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Wrt the "still" comment I was only teasing you in that by you using the word "still" it sounds like you implied the language is dying out (or should be) where I argue that its in its infancy. BTW the Afrikaans language is widely spoken by those who call themselves Afrikaners (the descendents of the Dutch, German and French settlers) as well as the majority of those who refer to themselves as "brown" (the descendents of the colonial-times slaves make up the majority of these people). If you follow rugby, Breyton Paulse and Brian Habana are examples of the latter. Only a minority of Afrikaners refer to themselves as boers (it's sometimes seen as implying right-wing connections). Wrt "Holland", what do you mean we can't agree on what to call a country? I thought the "Netherlands" was the agreed upon name.
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elenos
Chieftain
Joined: 13-Jun-2007 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1457 |
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Posted: 31-Jul-2007 at 08:19 |
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Afrikaans still in its infancy? I thought English was the
most preferred language. Its hard to draw any conclusions; we are not kept
well informed about what is going on there at all. The country somehow seems to
be getting poorer since liberation. I have always thought Holland and never agreed on any other name, although Netherlands is used! |
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elenos
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Eondt
Earl
Joined: 23-Aug-2006 Location: South Africa Online Status: Offline Posts: 279 |
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Posted: 31-Jul-2007 at 11:38 |
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If you take into account that Afrikaans has been recognised as a distinct language for less than 100 years I think it's still very young don't you?
Yes, English is the most preferred language, especially when it comes to business, but it's not the most widely spoken language in the country, that honour belongs to Zulu. With 11 official languages English seems to have become the common agreed upon language of communication whenever people of different language backgrounds converse.
Economic growth is actually very good at the moment. Investment levels are ery high and the standard of living is propably the highest it's ever been. Crime remains a problem though, no thanks in part to refugees streaming across our Northern border...
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elenos
Chieftain
Joined: 13-Jun-2007 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1457 |
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Posted: 31-Jul-2007 at 19:23 |
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I take your point about Afrikaans, Eondt, but it is not something we have to deal with here in Australia, English is the linga franca. The way immigration is going I think Chinese is becoming the second language!
I think your refugee problem must grow, for the Government is elected on the basis of black revolution. Whether they are tough enough to deal with the same problems as always is the question. |
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elenos
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Beylerbeyi
Chieftain
Joined: 02-Aug-2004 Location: Cuba Online Status: Offline Posts: 1355 |
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Posted: 01-Aug-2007 at 08:44 |
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There are just causes and unjust causes. The legitimacy rises from the cause. Actual actions may be wrong, but they are not enough to illegitimise a legitimate movement.
ANC was fighting against a racist regime, and its aim was freedom for all. Therefore it was legitimate according to the UN.
USSR supported many anti-colonial struggles worlwide, even when they were not openly communist.
Soviet support to the ANC is not the 'reason' of Western powers' support of apartheid regime. It is the excuse. The reason is apartheid regime's anti-communism. If no ANC existed, US would have still supported the apartheid.
AFAIK, there were a lot of non-blacks involved in ANC. Many socialist whites and Jews were also involved in the anti-apartheid struggle, although, I am not sure which parties they were part of.
This is common problem of the world. |
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Aelfgifu
Caliph 
Joined: 25-Jun-2006 Location: Netherlands Online Status: Offline Posts: 3387 |
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Posted: 01-Aug-2007 at 09:05 |
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elenos, my country is called The Netherlands. Holland is a region in the western part of it, where the powerbasis of the country lies. Calling the country Holland is the very same as calling the United Kindom England. (aka you can do it when talking to your mates at home, but you cannot do it on an international website, 'cause that will piss people off
 )
The Dutch government never gave any politcal support to the Apartheid regime (it is in fact a Ducth word, apartheid. It means seperatedness), but I have no idea what they did outside of the public domain. Things might be less savory there, I don't know.
Nevertheless, I do not see how the fact a portion of the population of South Africa speaks Dutch does in any way mean The Netherlands would support a certain faction in that country. South Africa not been politically connected to The Netherlands in any way since 1806, when the Brits kicked us out. again. Edited by Aelfgifu - 01-Aug-2007 at 09:13 |
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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
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elenos
Chieftain
Joined: 13-Jun-2007 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1457 |
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Posted: 01-Aug-2007 at 10:04 |
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The official "apartheid regime" did not start until 1948. What you say about "political support" seems defensive. Because of the trade between the two countries the Netherlands was reluctant to cut trading ties and considered South Africans (not South Africa) as Dutch up until about the 1980's.
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elenos
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Aelfgifu
Caliph
Joined: 25-Jun-2006 Location: Netherlands Online Status: Offline Posts: 3387 |
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Posted: 01-Aug-2007 at 10:30 |
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I'm not being defensive, I'm being ignorant. When I say I dont know, I literally mean I have absolutely no idea whatsoever, because I never bothered to check. I know that the oficial position of the government has always been to reject the idea of Apartheid. It does not at all surprise me to hear that in the meantime, trade continued. We have not been beneath pulling a trick or two like that before. After all, we are a nation that has grown rich on trade, and no-one ever claimed it was morally correct trade.
That good enough for ya?
 I must say however this is the first time I have heard that we consider Afrikaaners to be Dutch as little as 20 years ago. I was a bit young in the 80ies, but I still have the idea I would have known if this were so... I do remember learning about Apartheid in primary school and learning it was Bad and Wicked. Edited by Aelfgifu - 01-Aug-2007 at 10:37 |
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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
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