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The origin of name Greek and pelasgian.
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 Topic: The origin of name Greek and pelasgian.Posted: 27-Jul-2007 at 09:04 |
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Edited by ZEUS10 - 27-Jul-2007 at 09:58 |
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Posted: 27-Jul-2007 at 09:09 |
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Principado de Arberia
Edited by ZEUS10 - 27-Jul-2007 at 09:33 |
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Posted: 27-Jul-2007 at 09:29 |
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Arbresh are an Albanian community living in southern Italy and Sicily. These people are descendants of Albanians who settled in Italy during the 15th and 16th centuries, after the great Albanian hero Skanderbeg died, and the Ottoman Empire was able to assume hegemony over the region..
The Arbresh were able to keep most of their identity so they can clearly be identified as Albanians. The Arbresh are mostly Byzantine Catholic and less Latin Rite Catholics[1], and perhaps unsurprisingly, their language has been influenced more by Italian and Greek than has other Albanian dialects. The emigrations from Albania to Italy and Sicily have continued since the 15th century, and there are now significant communities of Albanians from Kosovo in the Arbresh settlements, most notably Piana degli Albanesi in Sicily Villages
The Arbresh villages have two names, an Italian one and a native Arbrisht name by which villagers know the place. The Arbresh villages are divided into small "islands" in the areas of the south of Italy:
MAGNA GRAECA, Piana degli Albanesi in Sicily "Albanese" or "Albanesi" which occurs in several of the Italian names above is the Italian language word for "Albanian" or "Albanians", respectively. ("Albanese" is also a common surname among the Arbresh and their overseas descendants
 Edited by ZEUS10 - 27-Jul-2007 at 09:37 |
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Posted: 27-Jul-2007 at 09:43 |
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Now here are the Italian states:
Lombardy : Milan Mantua Pavia Bergamo Vercelli Parma Locarno Novara Como Piacenza Lodi Crema Cartenuova Legnano Brescia Monza Siciliy: (Here I'm not sure because there was a state called 'Kingdom of the two Sicilies') Palermo Napoli Messina Salerno Capua Foggia Bari Brindisi Pescara Policastro Catania Reggio Syracuse Trapani Girgenti Taormina Genoa: Genova Savona Albenga Spezia Sarzanti Chiavari Porto Maurizio Ventimigilia Bastia Calvi Kaffa Montecastro Bonifacio Cagliari Arborea Galtelli The Papal States: Roma Bologna Ravenna Ancona Orrieto Assisi Pesaro Faensa Rimini Spoleto Fermo Perugia Terni Cesena Ascoli Velletri Venice: Venezia Padua Verona Treviso Vicenza Cadore Pola Zara Durazzo Ragusa Cattaro Spalato Heraklion Chalkis Limnos Peschiera Tuscany: (Isn't it Tuscia?) Firenze Pisa Siena Canossa Arezzo Volterra Lucca Camaldoti Vallombrosa Cortona Pistoja Talamone Buonconvento |
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exacaliber
Janissary 
Joined: 22-Jul-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 |
Posted: 27-Jul-2007 at 10:47 |
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I see we have a serious problem here. a) An onomatopoeic word is that which describes noises commonly found in various languages, like "bang" and has nothing to do with what we're talking about here. b) I couldn't find anything remotely close to your Albanian "hopala" and that French "vuola" but in either way, as I mentioned above, "οπλο" literally weapon, tool, implement which provides us with nothing which could be related to block. As for "οπλιτης" meaning shield, all I can ask is which linguist and I do hope you name one, supports the crazy theory that "οπλιτης" desribes shield, since the most comprehensive Lexico around, that of Liddle & Scott fails to mention it.
I have no problem in hearing others, but I would love to hear how you came to the conclusion that a "tree" and a "hand" are related.
Yes it does seem like you have more such theories to present, but before you do that, it would be correct to address the previous fallacies.
And your version is more accurate than what the Liddle & Scott presents in which way, what are your credentials or at least your sources ?
The 'u' and 'i' have little to do with the issue. The fact of the matter is that you took the two totally unrelated PIE roots "arg" and "gwen" and tried to invent a linguistic connection when there is no such thing to be found.
I'm quite sure I just wrote that and by doing so proved that trying to connect a PIE root to a diclension's suffix is simply rediculous and if anything, totally non-scientific.
The rediculous part isn't presenting words which derives from the two mentioned roots, but trying to find a relationship between them by making crazy assuptions based on breast milk.etc.
Look, I'd suggest you keep your nationalistic complexes out of this, it was an honest and simple question which I thought would add something to the discussion. Now if you have some fixation on Serbs chasing you, well thats a different issue, but please to not try to pull me into it. As for the spelling, thats why I added the (sp?), I wasn't sure on how its spelled. PS: I'm not a Serb.
Please, are we going to have a serious discussion here or are you going to claim whatever sounds similar to your ethnic denomination as yours? Now since you posted their official site, it would have been proper to note who they claim descendance of, and that my friend is not Albanians meaning your kin, but "arbiones celtas".
Your whole problem begins with you misunderstanding of the term colony. According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary we find: colony = a body of people living in a new territory but retaining ties with the parent state So the actualy question here is if they actually retained ties with their "parent state" after they fled? We all know the answer and that is no. |
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HEROI
Baron 
Joined: 06-Jul-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 468 |
Posted: 27-Jul-2007 at 16:27 |
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Read my post more carefully pls.i m not as nationalistic as you might think.
Being the so much educated scholar you try to make yourself look like in matters of ancient mediteranian,you would know really well the Shqipetar question and when Albanians started calling themselves in this name,but clearly your posts are motivated by nationalistic complexes.You seam to be such an expert on many things but fail on such an simple think?? And whats more you deform the word?
Thats why my friend i rightly pointed the question on wether you are not able to hide ither your nationality or ignorance.You are saing that you are not a Serb,i never sugested that,but if i would have a guess i would be prety sure you are very similar to one as far as nationality is concerned
 Now i am not claiming to know to much about ancient history,because i am just an amateur,and i am not competent enough,but even if i did what then?I very much belive that Albanian is the only survivour of the ancient languages ( or the language for that)of the ballcans.And speaking Albanian
and knowing the language i do find what zeus10 is saing quite logical,not out of any nationalistic complex ,but out of reasoning.I do know that all of the guys who make availeble information on which you base your opinion on know very litle of the Albanian language,but try to have alot of opinion about it.The topic is about the ORIGIN OF GREEK AND PELLASGIAN AND IF YOU DONT HAVE ANY VALUABLE CONTRIBUTION TO MAKE THEN SORRY I DID,AND I M NOT ANSWERING ANYMORE TO YOUR POSTS.
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Me pune,me perpjekje.
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Flipper
Arch Duke 
Joined: 23-Apr-2006 Location: Flipper HQ Online Status: Offline Posts: 1813 |
Posted: 27-Jul-2007 at 16:37 |
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Ok, lets clear some essential things up cause this is gonna end in a riddiculus way...
I will enumerate certain things before going further: 1) Zeus and the rest. Lets use latinized names as they are read in plain latin or spannish. Not English cause the soundings change and it become a mess. That means we read I like Iran, E like Espanol, A like Alicante, H like Y (spannish), U like I. This is the most appropriate sounding in order to understand what we sound like. 2) Zeus I have found you posting around the net about the Pelasgians "the white race". The same Alba-white theories posted by extreme albanian leftists. Keep such posts out of this forum and don't make me expose what is written here and there by people who share similar ideas. WORLD HISTORY HAS NO COLORS! Now...Some basic things. Pelasgians depicted themselves in paintings...Remember that the civilizations in the early mediterranian are mostly semitic before any indoeuropean arrival. Lets see how Pelasgians and Islanders painted themselves...   Pretty clear they have a darker complexion similar to the civilizations around the eastern mediterranean. Now, the Illyrians arrived after the Balcan invation of indoeuropean speakers which means any words appearing in Illyrian are most probable borowings from the pre-existing nations rather than the opposite. Around 1500 BC when the Acheans of Phthia decided to name themselves Ellines (remember we read like in Spanish) after their King (Ellin) the area looked like this. (picture posted previously by Maju)  As you can see before the Illyrians the area is inhabited by the Vucedol culture (not pelasgians). Illyrians are known to have migrated together with Italics and Celts. At the timeframe we're investigating the language had already evolved into indoeuropean as the writings in Linear B show. The Etruscans which you mentioned appear around 8th century BC. Now, when you compare two languages it is good to know them if you want to be taken seriously and not make mistakes with the sounds. When two languages are related it is pretty clear. Words look or sound similar and do not need reconstruction. See the following example... Swedish Norwegian English Mor Mor Mother Far Far Father Nej Nei No Dam Dam Lady Ηr Her Here Och og and Natt Natt Night Rotta Rotte Rat Vit Hvit White Hur Hvordan How Nsa Nese Nose Rd rd red As you can see Swedish and Norwegian are clearly related languages. I picked up everyday words or words with strong meaning as linguists usually do when comparing languages. Now lets see how basic words of Albanian are in comparison with greek. Greek Albanian English Min Muaj Month Neo i ri New Mitir nn mother Thygatir motr sister Nyx nat Night Ris hund Nose Mela i zi Black Erithro e kuq Red Xanthos e verdh Yellow Thyliko femr female Anir burr Man Kalo mir Good Kakon Keq Bad Yineka/Kuneka grua woman Everyday words are definetely not a very common factor in both languages... But even if your theory was correct then you should easily be able to translate this text...Remember you read the latin like if you were reading a spanish texts to get correct phonetics. Afu o Phidon o Argios edimefse ta metra kai stathma kateskevase kai nomisma argyroun en Egini epiisen endekatos on af Irakleous. Af ou archias Evagitou dekatos on apo Timenou ek Korinthou igage tin apikian kai ektise Syrakoussas.This paragraph is simple and has pretty common words and names that you recognise with one look...Give it a try and lets see what you can do based on the reconstructions you do. If you can't make sense on basic sentences then what else is left? Also answer me to one question...If you were right, why did the Greeks and Illyrians use translators to communicate with each other? Generally, you should consider the phenomenon of word borowings between neighbouring nations usual, especially in countries like Greece and Albania where each others languages have been spoken for a long time. Something else that is strange is that you have a whole nation writting their language and their neighbouring nation use just some scripts, not even an alphabet even though there are greek colonies in their societies. And to end this...About Hellenes --> Ellines. What excaliber said is one of the usual constructions of the word. But there is direct meaning of the word Ellas without needing to play games with it. If you pick one ancient greek lexicon you will see that except from the geographic term hellas you have one more meaning. It is used as a synonym of ιδιοβουλος/ιδιόρρυθμος (idiovoulos/idiorrythmos) which has no direct translation in english. Ellas/Idiorythmos is "a person who follows only his own will". Plain and simple...No need to break the word up. Hellas doesn't mean dialect, nor "enlightened" like some greeks may claim. Edited by Flipper - 27-Jul-2007 at 17:29 |
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Flipper
Arch Duke
Joined: 23-Apr-2006 Location: Flipper HQ Online Status: Offline Posts: 1813 |
Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 05:05 |
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As for the genetics...You were very careful choosing the J halogroup and nothing else...Well as you know there are more factors that decide genetics.
If you had chosen a table of the halogroup E3B you would see that Greeks are closer to northern Egyptians and Libyans.  If you had chosen to compare J2/M172 then Greeks would be similar to Lebanese, Jordanians, Palestinians and Italians. The G2/P15 would have showed you a bit of Turkic and Israeli similarities... The N1 halogroup is the one that is indoeuropean and show similarities with southern russians and danish. The PreHV shows similarities with Persians and Armenians... Try national geographics atlas of Human Journey to get the complete picture... http://https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html And also look at this map...  Source: Marc Bauchet et al., Measuring European Population Stratification using Microarray Genotype Data, American Journal of Human Genetics (in press), (2007) Sure we can see genetic similarities between southern Italians, Greeks, Bulgarians and coastal Turks...But look at ALbania...Only the southern part and a bit of Kosovo looks similar. Maybe because in the southern part Greeks and Albanians have been mixing for a long time? The northern part shows similarities to slovenians, kroatians, romanians, moldavians, Ukranians etc. Edited by Flipper - 28-Jul-2007 at 05:22 |
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Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
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HEROI
Baron
Joined: 06-Jul-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 468 |
Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 06:11 |
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Flipper,are you serious man? The area on black covers the wholeof the albanian speaking areas as far north as to include Serbia,the whole of Montenegro,Macedonia,and Bullgaria,and you say that it includes only south of Albania?Do you even know where Albania is on the map?And do you seriously think that there can be a more indegenious population in the balcans (or even europe) then the people of north albania?
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Me pune,me perpjekje.
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Flipper
Arch Duke
Joined: 23-Apr-2006 Location: Flipper HQ Online Status: Offline Posts: 1813 |
Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 08:11 |
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I can see it covers Albanian speaking areas as well as slavic and other. More indegenus population? Yes, there are areas in the balcans and europe that are more indegenus. But I believe that northern Albania is definetely more indegenus ;) Besides you can see it between northeners and southerners can't you? Edited by Flipper - 28-Jul-2007 at 08:13 |
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Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
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HEROI
Baron
Joined: 06-Jul-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 468 |
Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 10:46 |
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I meant homogenus
 ,If you can see it covers Albanian speaking areas then what do you mean when you say it covers only the south????????Maybe i did not get you.Anyway i have made clear my opinion about it,Albanian language is the only survivour of ancient balcan languages spoken today.
About who was or is a decendant of ancient Greek,Pellasgians,Illyrians,or wether they spoke different languages or the same language,on wether they were the same or different people,is very hard to have a solid opinion upon,and about who are the people who live in todays Albania,Greece and Macedonia ,one thing is sure,they are mixed people,but i would point out the Albanians in the north as probably the most Homogenus people of the balcans.
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Me pune,me perpjekje.
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Guests
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Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 10:59 |
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No you are wrong I didnt choose anything.
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Flipper
Arch Duke
Joined: 23-Apr-2006 Location: Flipper HQ Online Status: Offline Posts: 1813 |
Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 11:26 |
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Look, by my opinion Albanians might be Vucedols + Illyrians if we round it up. Pelasgians are not reported in that area and neither are the Vucedol cultures similar with the neolithic cultures of Greece. What happened after all this is another story. Now, about the language...Albanian is an old language but how much similar is it to Phrygian for example? Paionians are though to be of asiatic origins...What does Albanians have to do with Asians? You can't put the balcans in one basin at an early stage. Furthermore, Zeus10 is not a linguist and neither are most of the Albanians that post similar things. Moreover they are not speakers of Greek. The words are careful selected, they are not basic words and the meanings change completely. They translate them without being aware of a completely different meaning. You know that in another front, there are Romanians who claim similar things about the Albanians and find connection of the Dacians to the Illyrians. And the cherry on the cake is the Caucasian Albania were modern Albanians are said to descend.  Ofcourse none of these theories have been taken seriously.As I told Zeus10 in a previous post, if Albanian was an evolvement of a Palaiobalcanic language you would be able to understand some basic sentenses in Ancient Greek for example. Moreover, you guys have to decide...Are you Illyrians or not? If yes, what does your indoeuropean language have to do with a language of semitic relativeness? Also, remember that Illyrians arrived much later and were not understood by Greeks, considering their attempts for alliance against the Romans. I mean have a look around Heroi. What does linguists say about Albanian? Why do you never see a non-Albanian post things about what we've been discussing here? You know, there are Greeks that have crazy theories that make so much sense sometimes. But then, you look around on the community and see that much of it is made up or are assumptions not evidence. For example how can a linguist that has knowledge of 10-15 languages be not aware of things someone that maybe speaks his native + 1-2 foreign languages is supposed to be aware of? I mean, I have no time to respond in 234234823490 posts where Greek words are possed with other meaning and phonetics. I have done the same thing for the last months now. Furthermore I know were this discussion will end cause i've looked around on the net and noticed some sad posts with exactly the same content. I don't want to get into that. To round this up...I had a discussion a year ago with a respected Albanian member of this forum, called Arber. We were about to seek for connections of the Greek and Illyrian civilizations. I started to look around and it was exciting. However, I ended up reading about weird theories connected with "White" Races and other wild ideas. I didn't find one serious, proffessional author who claimed those things. Anyway, you get my point...I've seen too much and don't take it seriously anymore. As for northern Albania, i believe there are very homogenus. Don't forget however the Agrapha mountains in Greece. The seat of the Sarakatsans (anc. tribe of Aperandi). They still live a primitive life, talk an archaic language, marry within the tribe and were never bothered by conquerors. You have similar people in Bulgaria as well. Whereever there are mountains there is peace...  |
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Flipper
Arch Duke
Joined: 23-Apr-2006 Location: Flipper HQ Online Status: Offline Posts: 1813 |
Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 11:38 |
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1) So according to this screenshots the Palaiobalcanic people who lived in Illyria, Thrace, FYROMacedonia and Bulgaria left northwards? 2) A high amount seems to originate from Western Europe? That suggests that Iberians were in Greece and Albania as well? 3) How can Sardinians be so close to Greeks and Albanians while Calabrians appear so far? 4) I don't see any Bulgarians, Serbs or Bosnians in PC1. Where are they placed? 5) Where are the major Halogroups usually shown in Balcanic areas? 6) Aren't Albanians supposed to be Dinaric foremost? |
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HEROI
Baron
Joined: 06-Jul-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 468 |
Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 11:55 |
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Me pune,me perpjekje.
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Guests
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Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 11:57 |
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I am not a expert in genetic, but the chart speaks itself.
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Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 12:00 |
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Flipper
Arch Duke
Joined: 23-Apr-2006 Location: Flipper HQ Online Status: Offline Posts: 1813 |
Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 12:03 |
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No, the whole report speaks for itself...Why selecting just that? Let the people read the whole report High-Resolution Phylogenetic Analysis of Southeastern Europe (SEE) Traces Major Episodes of Paternal Gene Flow Among Slavic Populations This report would not favour a palaiobalcanic theory Zeus10... |
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Guests
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Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 12:20 |
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now look at the study of a greek linguist
May be she is wrong may be not, but everything fits with my theory
http://www.greecetravel.com/archaeology/mitsopoulou/language.htmSimilarities in Greek and Chinese LanguageBy Theresa Mitsopoulou (greek) The word hygea health, must be related to the Chinese word yu which means to heal, to recover, to become well (as an adverb it means the morethe more since one recovers gradually and little by little). Today, the word--Albania--is referred to as "Alebaniya" in Chinese. This word is believed to be derived from the Latin word: "Aibainiya". (The "l" in Albania came about later in Greek and in Latin as these languages evolved). Poignantly, in modern Chinese, "bai" means "snow white". In the ancient Chinese language, "ai" means "snow white" without the "b"--not in reference to the young maiden and her seven dwarfs however! Rather, "snow white" refers to the dramatic descriptions of the snow white mountains of Albania which bring to mind the many horrid tragedies the Greek soldiers faced during World War II upon such mountains. The Chinese word, "bai", which means "snow white" offers another fascinating meaning which might sound rather farfetched. Nevertheless, the Chinese word for white wine (which is produced with sugar cane and maize, as is Greek ouzo) is "bai jiu". Many wines are referred to, in Chinese, as "san- bai" which means exactly: "white three-fold". Notably, these particular wines produce such heavy foam, one might venture to assert that the type of wine known for its heavy foam is champagne. "White three-fold" or "white three times" can also be linked to a particular French province; to explain, this province has such extensive vineyards for wine production, the province was named Champagne. The world-famous "foam" wine, so to speak, is Champagne or "san bai"--white three-fold!   Edited by ZEUS10 - 28-Jul-2007 at 12:25 |
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exacaliber
Janissary
Joined: 22-Jul-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 |
Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 12:20 |
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a) Just to clarify. You indeed did make reference to my nationality see: "You just cant hide your nationality can you?" and You as a sERV as if it is of any significance when presenting the fact that the linguistic connections presented by zeus10 are fallacious as the IE and PIE roots clearly prove. But lets forget about it. b) You're stuck on how I wrote the word when I clearly added (sp?) after it to indicate that I'm not familiar with its accurate spelling. c) the issue isn't strictly the Albanian language which I know almost nothing about but the fact that zeus10 is presenting highly questionable linguistic connections that have no basis what so ever. What I mean is that you can't claim that 'car' and 'cat' are the same thing nor that they derive from the same root simply because they sound and look similar. The very basis of the linguistic connections are that words of similar sound actually mean the same thing (see mother, father, brother. etc) d) You suggest that zeus10's theories are plausable by attempting to discredit my sources. Well when zeus10 presents as requested the names of linguists and his sources, then we can debate who's source is the correct one, the internationally recognized Liddle & Scott Lexicon and a number of online databases which present IE and PIE roots or his. Untill he does, I'm sorry to say that your argument of not knowing the Albanian language does very little to support his claims. Finally if valuable contribution is discrediting my posts by questioning my nationality instead of the actual linguistic part of my posts, I guess we comprehend contribution quite differently. If you have anything to add related to the linguistic aspect of my posts please do. otherwise, lets end it here. |
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