Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

"5000 years of Chinese history"
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
elenos View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-Jun-2007
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1457 		  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "5000 years of Chinese history"
    Posted: 23-Nov-2007 at 21:57
As I was saying Charioteer, It's election time in Australia today and we have been swamped by messages about which party has the weight of history on their side. I was commenting on the Australian way and not trying to roast China over the record of ever having free and fair elections. As you say there is a different way of interpreting the world that not all of us can grasp.
You are doing a good job of explaining the long history except in your account I find it hard to follow which people or clan come from where. A map of ethnic types and regions could help, not all of us are familiar with the many distinctions being made. Beside that point keep us the good work, I love seeing the artwork!
elenos
Back to Top
Omnipotence View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 16-Nov-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 494 		  Quote Omnipotence Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2007 at 22:14
Thanks for the info Charioteer. It seems that my statement was unclear when I said that there was no Xia and pre-Xia written accounts. What I meant was that there was no Xia recorded history of the Xia. But I didn't know there's such a variety of documents about the Xia not long afterwards(and SimaQian's sources on the Xia), so you learn something new everyday.
Back to Top
The Charioteer View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 16-Feb-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 735 		  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2007 at 22:37
Originally posted by elenos

As I was saying Charioteer, It's election time in Australia today and we have been swamped by messages about which party has the weight of history on their side. I was commenting on the Australian way and not trying to roast China over the record of ever having free and fair elections. As you say there is a different way of interpreting the world that not all of us can grasp.
 
ofcourse, just becareful your post might be hidden by the "Aussie" mod, the "boss" says "no more Australian politics" LOL 
 
btw, i already did my vote by postal, so whats screwed with the dirty election campaign tactics with anti-muslim racism? nah, i have already label this government "racist" anyway, so i said "f**k off" to these racist pigs with my ballot paper. Labor all the way!
 
You are doing a good job of explaining the long history except in your account I find it hard to follow which people or clan come from where.
 
sure, there are overseas Chinese forumers come here to get some Chinese history, i am always here to offer.
 
A map of ethnic types and regions could help, not all of us are familiar with the many distinctions being made. Beside that point keep us the good work, I love seeing the artwork!
 
acutally im not interested in lecturing newbies. sorry mate.
 
 
 
 
Back to Top
The Charioteer View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 16-Feb-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 735 		  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2007 at 23:35
Originally posted by Omnipotence

Thanks for the info Charioteer. It seems that my statement was unclear when I said that there was no Xia and pre-Xia written accounts. What I meant was that there was no Xia recorded history of the Xia. But I didn't know there's such a variety of documents about the Xia not long afterwards(and SimaQian's sources on the Xia), so you learn something new everyday.
 
There was also no written record of Shang to prove its existence before oracle bone inscription was discovered. They were regarded as "myth"(mainly by the western historians) back then.
 
but the problem is there were those successor states to the Shang, like the Song. if the Shang didnt exist, where did the Song come from?
 
likewisely the Xia
 
Shiji, Xia dynasty
 
"太史公曰：禹为姒姓，其後分封，用国为姓，故有夏后氏、有扈氏、有男氏、斟寻氏、彤城氏、襃氏、费氏、杞氏、缯氏、辛氏、冥氏、斟戈氏。孔子正夏时，学者多传夏小正云。自虞、夏时，贡赋备矣。或言禹会诸侯江南，计功而崩，因葬焉，命曰会稽。会稽者，会计也"
 
to Sima qian, there were many successor states to the Xia, the accounts of the existence of Xia were preserved through their existence, perhaps thats why his predecessor Confucius couldnt ignore the existence of Xia as well because the evidences are too overwhelming to deny .
 
we all know the last Western Zhou king favored the concubine Bao si, that girl was from bao state, a descendant of the Xia.
 
another well known descendant state of the Xia, the Qi state, its ruler was referred to as "duke of Xia" by other states. There are various pre-Qin documents can be referenced with. for instance
 
"有夏虽衰，杞、鄫犹在"《国语周语》
"夫杞，明王之后也"《管子大匡》
"殷汤封夏后于杞，周又封之"《世本王侯》
"成汤卒受大命乃放夏桀，散亡其佐，乃迁姒姓于杞""《大戴礼记少间》
"(卫成)公命祀相，宁武子不可，曰，鬼神非其族类，不歆其祀，杞、鄫何事？"《左传-僖公三十一年记》
"(称杞为)"夏肄(余)"";《左传-襄公二十九年记郑子大叔之语》
 
oracle bone inscription have the record of the people of Qi as well
"丁酉卜，殼贞，杞侯炬弗其祸，有疾"
"癸巳卜，令登赉杞"
"己卯卜行贞，王其田亡灾，在杞"
"庚辰卜行贞，王其步自杞，亡灾"
"庚寅卜在女香贞，王步于杞，亡灾"
"壬辰卜，在杞贞，王步于意，亡灾"
 
if the Xia didnt exist, where did the people of Qi come from? just like if the Shang didnt exist, where did the people of Song come from? 
 
the difference is archaeologist havent found any written evidences from erlitou site like they found the oracle bones from Shang ruins.
 
but to historians like Confucius and Sima qian to prove the existence of Xia and Shang and include it in their history works doesnt have to be determined by archaeology. even they can dig the graves the custom of their society were different from ours.
 
if anyone say to Confucius that the Shang didnt exist because there was no archaeological evidence of it, he would probably remind them that hes actually the descendant of Shang.
 
thus in 《逸周书王会》the ruler of Qi state was referred to as "duke of Xia"(夏公),while the ruler of Song state was referred to as "duke of Yin(Shang)"(殷公)
 
and Confucius actually equals the Song to Shang, and the Qi to Xia
 "夏礼，吾能言之，杞不足征也；殷礼，吾能言之，宋不足征也" 《论语八佾》
 
btw, there is a village near the mausoleum of Yu the great, about more than a thousand people live there today still bear the surname of Si
 
the clan name of Xia ruling household, the ancestor of these people belonged to Xia household and was assigned to Kuaiji mountain to maintain the mausoleum.
 
We dont have to dig graves to know the existence of these people.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by The Charioteer - 24-Nov-2007 at 00:11
Back to Top
elenos View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-Jun-2007
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1457 		  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2007 at 23:54
My post wasn't actually about Australian politics, sorry if the elections permeated my post. 

"btw, i already did my vote by postal, so whats screwed with the dirty election campaign tactics with anti-muslim racism? nah, i have already label this government "racist" anyway, so i said "f**k off" to these racist pigs with my ballot paper. Labor all the way!"

As our readers can see by what you saying the politics here have an aggressive  flavor all of their own!

"acutally im not interested in lecturing newbies. sorry mate."

Ah so, always keep the inscrutable oriental face or lose face.

elenos
Back to Top
The Charioteer View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 16-Feb-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 735 		  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 00:21
Originally posted by elenos

My post wasn't actually about Australian politics, sorry if the elections permeated my post. 

"btw, i already did my vote by postal, so whats screwed with the dirty election campaign tactics with anti-muslim racism? nah, i have already label this government "racist" anyway, so i said "f**k off" to these racist pigs with my ballot paper. Labor all the way!"

As our readers can see by what you saying the politics here have an aggressive  flavor all of their own!


nah i only become aggressive when facing biased and ignorant f**ks like those racist pigs, i have no regard for them you can bet on that.
 
Originally posted by elenos

"acutally im not interested in lecturing newbies. sorry mate."

Ah so, always keep the inscrutable oriental face or lose face.

 
keep performing, im rather enjoying the show, its entertaining really.
you want trolling i will give what you want.
 
 


Edited by The Charioteer - 24-Nov-2007 at 00:23
Back to Top
elenos View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-Jun-2007
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1457 		  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 02:24
Please don't be put out because of me, you are teaching me things here some of us never knew before. Would you say you are typical of a fair minded person by saying Chinese history is only for the Chinese? And does that qualify you to make informed comments on the politics of other countries?
elenos
Back to Top
Omnipotence View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 16-Nov-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 494 		  Quote Omnipotence Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 04:08

Hate to step in, but calling someone a newbie do tend to kindle the flame. I do value your knowledge Charioteer, but I doubt there's need to get so emotional.

btw, I'm not really against cussing, but there are very touchy moderators who would smear these cuss words all over you. Just a word of advise.
Back to Top
The Charioteer View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 16-Feb-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 735 		  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 04:39
Originally posted by elenos

Please don't be put out because of me,you are teaching me things here some of us never knew before. Would you say you are typical of a fair minded person by saying Chinese history is only for the Chinese? And does that qualify you to make informed comments on the politics of other countries?
 
you mean Chinese history is for trolls only?
and I actually care more about Australian politics, because it is the only politics would affect my life.
and as an ethnic minority i especially care about racism in Australia.
Back to Top
The Charioteer View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 16-Feb-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 735 		  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 04:44
Originally posted by Omnipotence

Hate to step in, but calling someone a newbie do tend to kindle the flame. I do value your knowledge Charioteer, but I doubt there's need to get so emotional.
 
and i value this advice very much, thank you.
 
Back to Top
elenos View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-Jun-2007
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1457 		  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 06:38
"you mean Chinese history is for trolls only?"

Chinese history is for everybody isn't it? Like everybody else, no matter what their ethnicity, you can share in the Australian experience, welcome.
elenos
Back to Top
The Charioteer View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 16-Feb-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 735 		  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2007 at 00:01
Originally posted by Omnipotence

It seems that my statement was unclear when I said that there was no Xia and pre-Xia written accounts. What I meant was that there was no Xia recorded history of the Xia.
 
I know what you were referring to, the Xia recorded history of the Xia and Sima qian get Xia and pre-Xia history from word of mouth basis just like his western counterpart, but i was trying to say this wasnt exactly the situation as reponse to your latter saying.
 
thats where i think its necessary to trace the difference in the original concepts, and to understand how it may not attribute necessarily to uniformity in the analogy of "history" because of that difference.
there are similarities as well differences, neither should be neglected.
my focus was on the difference between the "history", not necessarily which one is "better".
 
perhaps my statement was the one thats unclear.


Edited by The Charioteer - 25-Nov-2007 at 00:09
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.