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calvo
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Topic: Tatar common identity? Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 18:04 |
What I have learned is that all "Tatars" are supposedly descended by Khanates inherited from the Golden Horde. yet today, distinct groups of "Tatars" have lived geographically apart for so many centuries; so to what extend do distinct populations of "Tatars" identify with each other.
For all that I know, the Crimean Tatars have been long under Ottoman Turkish influence. They tend to be of Mediterranean appearance.
Kazan Tatars are supposedly descended from Volga Bulgars. They are mostly of "Russian appearance" today and had lived together with other Turkic groups such as the Bashkirs and Chuvash for centuries, which no doubt influenced their customs.
The Siberian Tatars are mostly Mongoloid in appearance, yet today they are heavily Russianized and are in danger of losing their identity.
How do these distinct groups relate to each other? Do they consider themelves sub-ethnicities of the same people, or different ethnicities altogether?
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erkut
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Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 08:13 |
Originally posted by calvo
How do these distinct groups relate to each other? Do they consider themelves sub-ethnicities of the same people, or different ethnicities altogether? |
They consider themselves as same nation. They still speak the same language(with just little differences) and they still have a common culture(for ex; same foods, same holidays)
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Bulldog
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Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 08:15 |
Interestingly Tatars have been some of the most prominant defenders, promoters and intellects of the pan-Turkist movement which also coincided with pan-muslim movements.
Ismail Bey Gaspirali, a well respected highly influential intellect who called for unity among the Soviet Turks and muslims. He is known for being an advocate for womans rights founding Alem-i Nisvan. He also founded the famous "Tercuman" and is well known today.
Him along with many others also founded the Ittifaq al-Muslimin.
Other famous names include "Sultan Galiyev", he was a prominant Soviet intellect and called for unity in socialism for the Turkic and muslim peoples in the Soviet Empire.
However, he was later charged with being a Pan-Turkist and allying with the Basmachis.
Galiyevism and Pan-Turkism soon became a charge used by Stalins oppressive forces to lable any Tatar and Turkic groups and was used as an excuse in purges against them, anyone could be labelled one for things like promoting culture or even just having a Turkic identity.
Today Tatarstan has its own unique autonomy in modern Russia, Islam has remained strong and there is pride among the Tatars, they call people who don't speak their language as "mankurts".
They can look physically different sometimes but most have more Oriental eyes.
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Nick1986
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Posted: 24-Mar-2011 at 18:00 |
There was a Tatar community in Poland centuries after the Mongols had been driven out of Russia. Their Islamic faith was tolerated by the authorities and in return these tough horsemen served as soldiers in the Polish army. Their mosques still survive and continue to be used by Poland's modern Muslim community
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Cryptic
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Posted: 25-Mar-2011 at 00:07 |
Originally posted by Nick1986
There was a Tatar community in Poland centuries after the Mongols had been driven out of Russia. |
Though the number of polish Tartars is small, about 5,000, I think there is a far larger number of Poles who have Tartar background. Many Tartars "Polonized" over the centuries through intermarriage, adopting Christianity and also adopting Christian names.
Originally posted by Nick1986
Their mosques still survive.... |
As a side not there are two small groups of Christian Tartars in Russia (evidenlty converted from Islam to Russian Orthodox Christianity at some point in the past)
Edited by Cryptic - 25-Mar-2011 at 00:12
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Nick1986
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Posted: 25-Mar-2011 at 08:54 |
I wonder if that's why many Poles (especially in the east) have dark skin and straight black hair?
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medenaywe
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Posted: 25-Mar-2011 at 09:12 |
Tatars are mixed,Mongol type of humanoids with European type.They were warriors and mercenaries,used by Rome.Mixing was natural process that have started since the dawn of civilization.Biggest migrations were during the colonization of Central,South and North of Europe covered by Roman and Byzantine Empire.
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Cryptic
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Posted: 25-Mar-2011 at 09:34 |
Originally posted by Nick1986
I wonder if that's why many Poles (especially in the east) have dark skin and straight black hair? |
I think so. I am of Polish background and my father easily passed for Turkish in rural Turkey. My grandfather would have as well. I dont have all my father's features, but I tan deeply and my eyes have a some what asian look to them.
The concept worked in reverse as well. Some Tatars are very light complected. When the various Khanates were strong, I think a certain number of slavs (Poles, Ukrainians and Russians) "Tatarized" by converting to Islam and taking Tatar / Islamic names.
Edited by Cryptic - 25-Mar-2011 at 09:35
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medenaywe
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Posted: 25-Mar-2011 at 10:10 |
this one looks rational also.Black were not only and all Turks.But they had converted in Islam after fail of East Empire.Carthage and Persia were also full with people of all colours.
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Nick1986
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Posted: 25-Mar-2011 at 11:24 |
A lot of people in England thought my grandfather was Sicilian, Spanish or Middle Eastern. In addition to possible Tartar descent it's also likely that some of his ancestors were Jews who converted to Christianity as he used many Yiddish words.
Edited by Nick1986 - 25-Mar-2011 at 11:25
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Cryptic
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Posted: 25-Mar-2011 at 12:23 |
With the Yiddish words, Jewish background seems more possible than Tatar. If you are interested, you could try the Mormon libraries. Genealogy is an important part of Mormonism and they have collected material from all over the world.
Maybe you could look for name changes, Jewish associated last names or listings as ethnically Jewish on birth or baptism records. A good indicator might be ancestor "X" being baptized not as an infant, but in his thirties. I dont know if older Polish birth records listed Jews as a seperate ethnicity, but Soviet ones do.
Edited by Cryptic - 25-Mar-2011 at 12:27
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