Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Tatar common identity?

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
calvo View Drop Down
General
General


Joined: 20-May-2007
Location: Spain
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 846
  Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Tatar common identity?
    Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 18:04
What I have learned is that all "Tatars" are supposedly descended by Khanates inherited from the Golden Horde. yet today, distinct groups of "Tatars" have lived geographically apart for so many centuries; so to what extend do distinct populations of "Tatars" identify with each other.
 
For all that I know, the Crimean Tatars have been long under Ottoman Turkish influence. They tend to be of Mediterranean appearance.
Kazan Tatars are supposedly descended from Volga Bulgars. They are mostly of "Russian appearance" today and had lived together with other Turkic groups such as the Bashkirs and Chuvash for centuries, which no doubt influenced their customs.
The Siberian Tatars are mostly Mongoloid in appearance, yet today they are heavily Russianized and are in danger of losing their identity.
 
How do these distinct groups relate to each other? Do they consider themelves sub-ethnicities of the same people, or different ethnicities altogether?
Back to Top
erkut View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
Persona non Grata

Joined: 18-Feb-2006
Location: T.R.N.C.
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 965
  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 08:13
Originally posted by calvo

How do these distinct groups relate to each other? Do they consider themelves sub-ethnicities of the same people, or different ethnicities altogether?
 
They consider themselves as same nation. They still speak the same language(with just little differences) and they still have a common culture(for ex; same foods, same holidays)
Back to Top
Bulldog View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 17-May-2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2800
  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 08:15
Interestingly Tatars have been some of the most prominant defenders, promoters and intellects of the pan-Turkist movement which also coincided with pan-muslim movements.
 
Ismail Bey Gaspirali, a well respected highly influential intellect who called for unity among the Soviet Turks and muslims. He is known for being an advocate for womans rights founding Alem-i Nisvan. He also founded the famous "Tercuman" and is well known today.
 
 
Him along with many others also founded the Ittifaq al-Muslimin.
 
Other famous names include "Sultan Galiyev", he was a prominant Soviet intellect and called for unity in socialism for the Turkic and muslim peoples in the Soviet Empire.
However, he was later charged with being a Pan-Turkist and allying with the Basmachis.
 
Galiyevism and Pan-Turkism soon became a charge used by Stalins oppressive forces to lable any Tatar and Turkic groups and was used as an excuse in purges against them, anyone could be labelled one for things like promoting culture or even just having a Turkic identity.
 
Today Tatarstan has its own unique autonomy in modern Russia, Islam has remained strong and there is pride among the Tatars, they call people who don't speak their language as "mankurts".
 
They can look physically different sometimes but most have more Oriental eyes.
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

Back to Top
Nick1986 View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Mighty Slayer of Trolls

Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940
  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2011 at 18:00
There was a Tatar community in Poland centuries after the Mongols had been driven out of Russia. Their Islamic faith was tolerated by the authorities and in return these tough horsemen served as soldiers in the Polish army. Their mosques still survive and continue to be used by Poland's modern Muslim community
Back to Top
Cryptic View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 05-Jul-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962
  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2011 at 00:07
Originally posted by Nick1986

There was a Tatar community in Poland centuries after the Mongols had been driven out of Russia.
Though the number of polish Tartars is small, about 5,000, I think there is a far larger number of Poles who have Tartar background.  Many Tartars "Polonized" over the centuries through intermarriage, adopting Christianity and also adopting Christian names.  
 
Originally posted by Nick1986

Their mosques still survive....
  
As a side not there are two small groups of Christian Tartars in Russia (evidenlty converted from Islam to Russian Orthodox Christianity at some point in the past)


Edited by Cryptic - 25-Mar-2011 at 00:12
Back to Top
Nick1986 View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Mighty Slayer of Trolls

Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940
  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2011 at 08:54
I wonder if that's why many Poles (especially in the east) have dark skin and straight black hair?
Back to Top
medenaywe View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator
Avatar
Master of Meanings

Joined: 06-Nov-2010
Location: /
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17084
  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2011 at 09:12
Tatars are mixed,Mongol type of humanoids with European type.They were warriors and mercenaries,used
by Rome.Mixing was natural process that have started since the dawn of civilization.Biggest migrations were
during the colonization of Central,South and North of Europe covered by Roman and Byzantine Empire.
Back to Top
Cryptic View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 05-Jul-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962
  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2011 at 09:34
Originally posted by Nick1986

I wonder if that's why many Poles (especially in the east) have dark skin and straight black hair?
I think so.  I am of Polish background and my father easily passed for Turkish in rural Turkey.  My grandfather would have as well.  I dont have all my father's features, but I tan deeply and my eyes have a some what asian look to them.   
 
The concept worked in reverse as well.  Some Tatars are very light complected.  When the various Khanates were strong, I think a certain number of slavs (Poles, Ukrainians and Russians) "Tatarized"  by converting to Islam and taking Tatar / Islamic names.


Edited by Cryptic - 25-Mar-2011 at 09:35
Back to Top
medenaywe View Drop Down
AE Moderator
AE Moderator
Avatar
Master of Meanings

Joined: 06-Nov-2010
Location: /
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 17084
  Quote medenaywe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2011 at 10:10
this one looks rational also.Black were not only and all Turks.But they had converted in Islam after fail of East Empire.Carthage and Persia were also full with people of all colours.
Back to Top
Nick1986 View Drop Down
Emperor
Emperor
Avatar
Mighty Slayer of Trolls

Joined: 22-Mar-2011
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7940
  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2011 at 11:24
A lot of people in England thought my grandfather was Sicilian, Spanish or Middle Eastern. In addition to possible Tartar descent it's also likely that some of his ancestors were Jews who converted to Christianity as he used many Yiddish words.

Edited by Nick1986 - 25-Mar-2011 at 11:25
Back to Top
Cryptic View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 05-Jul-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962
  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Mar-2011 at 12:23

With the Yiddish words, Jewish background seems more possible than Tatar.  If you are interested, you could try the Mormon libraries.  Genealogy is an important part of Mormonism and they have collected material from all over the world.

 
Maybe you could look for name changes, Jewish associated last names or listings as ethnically Jewish on birth or baptism records.  A good indicator might be ancestor "X" being baptized not as an infant, but in his thirties.  I dont know if older Polish birth records listed Jews as a seperate ethnicity, but Soviet ones do.
 


Edited by Cryptic - 25-Mar-2011 at 12:27
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.