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population of pre-colombian amazon

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  Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: population of pre-colombian amazon
    Posted: 18-Jul-2007 at 18:35
I saw in a documentary about the epic exploration of Francisco de Orellana of the Amazon river - very interesting indeed.
 
There it commented that the Spaniards encountered village after village, town after town, city after city, and kingdom after kingdom - with an estimated population of 2 million.
However, most of the houses were made of wood so they didn't last. However, they managed to build sophisticated infrastructures such as bridges and roads connecting all the towns.
 
I don't know how reliable these sources are as no one gave any names of the kingdoms or cities. Other sources claim that there could never have been more than half a million people living in the Amazon basin.
 
Does anyone else know more of the subject?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2007 at 18:43

It is in fashion these days to exagerate the population of Pre-Contact Americas. That's done to "prove" there was a massive genocide. However, the fact remain there are not reliable "census" of pre-Contact population in the Americas. The Amazon, however, was never a region with much density at all.

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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2007 at 22:59
Originally posted by pinguin

It is in fashion these days to exagerate the population of Pre-Contact Americas. That's done to "prove" there was a massive genocide. However, the fact remain there are not reliable "census" of pre-Contact population in the Americas. The Amazon, however, was never a region with much density at all.

 
 
Calvo, Recent Investigations, done by Scientists from S and N America and Europe have found solid evidence that the Amazon Basin was heavily farmed.  An area roughly the size of the State of Mass. was intensively farmed. Based On the acreages farmed, they would be capable of feeding some 70,000,000.  Why grow food enough for 70 Mil.  if you don't have 70 Mil.
 
 
Clarke Ericson and W. Balee,  U. of Pennsylvania.  Origins and Development of the Ibibate Mound Complex in The Bolivian Amazon.
 
There are many others working on this.  Don't let any one try to fool you by babbling about hoaxes and pseudo this and pseudo that to try to distract from the fact that their ideas are Archaic and anachronistic and agenda driven.  Oh, and downright wrong. Big%20smile
 
BTW-  These people aren't amateurs, they are all Univ based respected scientists. 
 
 


Edited by red clay - 18-Jul-2007 at 23:25
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2007 at 23:24
Not everybody agrees:
 
Pre-Colombian Amazon rainforest not heavily populated
mongabay.com
March 6, 2007


 
Much of the Amazon rainforest was not heavily populated by pre-Colombian indigenous cultures argues a new paper published in the journal Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences. The work challenges an increasingly accepted theory -- popularized in Charles C. Mann's 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus -- that the Amazon supported dense, sedentary populations prior to the arrival of Europeans.

The theory -- based on the discovery of a series of villages and a network of roads -- suggests that much of the Amazon is "anthropogenic in nature" meaning that the distribution of forest species across the vast Amazon Basin has been influenced by mankind. It also holds that pre-Colombian populations suffered greatly from diseases introduced by Europeans, which may have wiped out 95-99 percent of the population within a century of "first-contact". Abandoned settlements and agricultural areas would have been reclaimed by tropical rainforest. Since most structures would have been constructed of wood and bone which would not have lasted long in the hot and humid conditions of the Amazon, little archeological evidence would remain.

The new paper, authored by Dr. Mark Bush of the Florida Institute of Technology and colleagues, argues that while there may have been large populations living along the Amazon river, most of the rainforest had low population density and little of it could be considered "built" landscape. The conclusions are based on analysis of pollen and charcoal samples from upland forest areas in two lake districts in central and western Amazonia.

"We don't contradict that there were major settlements in key areas flanking the Amazon Channel -- there could have been millions of people living there," said Bush. "What we do say is that when you start to look away from known settlements, you may see very long-term local use. These people didn't stray very far from home, or from local bodies of water for several thousands of years. We looked at clusters of lakes and landscapes where people lived, and asked, did they leave their homesite to farm around other nearby lakes? No they didn't. These findings argue for a very localized use of Amazonian forest resources outside the main, known, archaeological areas."

The authors say their analysis indicate that the scale of human impacts in upland forest area, notably forest clearance and cultivation of maize and manioc, is "localized and probably strongly influenced by the presence of a permanent open-water body."

Implications for Conservation


Product of mankind?


This certainly is.


So is this

Bush argues that the findings should provide ammunition for conservation efforts in the Amazon since they seem to show that the rainforest, as we know it today, is not primarily a product of human actions and that to preserve biodiversity, it should be kept in a natural state.

"These data are directly relevant to the resilience of Amazonian conservation, as they do not support the contention that all of Amazonia is a 'built landscape' and therefore a product of past human land use," Bush explained. "Most archaeologists are buying into the argument that you had big populations that transformed the landscape en masse. Another group of archaeologists say that transformation was very much limited to river corridors, and if you went away from the river corridors there wasn't that much impact. That's what our findings tend to support."

Still, Bush believes the paper will only add fuel to debate over the historic impact of mankind on the Amazon forest.

"While the majority of archaeologists argue the rivers were the major conduit for populations, there is an increasing vocalization that there was much more widespread habitat transformation; that you still had a bulk of people along the river but their influence extended deep into the forest. It's still nebulous, and difficult to get people to map stuff, or put hard numbers on it, but there is a sentiment that the Amazonia has been disturbed and that the view of the Amazonian rainforest as a built landscape is gaining momentum. There are extremes at either ends, and the majority of people are in middle but there's a tendency of drifting toward the high end," he said, noting that pre-Colombian population estimates for the Amazon have climbed from 1 million in the 1950s, to 4 millions in the 1970s, to 10 million in the 1990s, to the tens of millions by some today. "We've now got a polarized community," he concluded.

CITATION: Mark B. Bush , Miles R. Silman Mauro B. de Toledo , Claudia Listopad, William D. Gosling , Christopher Williams , Paulo E. de Oliveira , Carolyn Krisel (2007). Holocene fire and occupation in Amazonia: records from two lake districts. Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences: Volume 362, Number 1478 / February 28, 2007


Edited by pinguin - 18-Jul-2007 at 23:25
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2007 at 23:29
Which is the number?
 
15 millions for all the Americas is the best estimated that I have found so far. Perhaps I am wrong and there where 25 million people, but beyond that is just especulation, so far.
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2007 at 23:46
Not evryone evr agrees on qanything.  But this guy sure is hedgeing his bets, from your post-
 
 
"While the majority of archaeologists argue the rivers were the major conduit for populations, there is an increasing vocalization that there was much more widespread habitat transformation; that you still had a bulk of people along the river but their influence extended deep into the forest. It's still nebulous, and difficult to get people to map stuff, or put hard numbers on it, but there is a sentiment that the Amazonia has been disturbed and that the view of the Amazonian rainforest as a built landscape is gaining momentum. There are extremes at either ends, and the majority of people are in middle but there's a tendency of drifting toward the high end," he said, noting that pre-Colombian population estimates for the Amazon have climbed from 1 million in the 1950s, to 4 millions in the 1970s, to 10 million in the 1990s, to the tens of millions by some today. "We've now got a polarized community," he concluded.
 
As for Mongabay.com, it;s an Agenda driven organ for stopping development of the Amazon Rainforest.  They are afraid if people find out how much it has been acted on the attitude toward it will change causing more development.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2007 at 23:54

Yes, Red Clay. Everyone has an agenda.

Now, estimations had varied from 10 to 200 million people at contact. The ones that deny the genocide get lower numbers, while the ones that want to exagerate it pick higher estimations. Something weird is going on in there.  The estimations I have are of circa 15 to 25 million people, which would explain all the historical evens in a realistic manner. Yes, there was brutality, killings and death, but it is not realistic to believe 90% of the population died in a generation because a single cause.

Now 25 millions is not a small number at all. Remember that by the time Portugal has only 1 million people and Spain 5 millions and Britain perhaps a similar number. China had perhaps 150 millions. So that number in the right historical context of its time it was really huge.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 

 

 



Edited by pinguin - 18-Jul-2007 at 23:57
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 00:19
The things Orellana described also happened in other parts of the America. De Soto's descriptions of the Southeast of the United States was heavily populated when he visited it. The next vistors however, which where the French about 100 years later, not not describe such large populations.

Probably the same happened in the US southwest as happened in Amazonia: the first explorers brought deseases with them that decimated the population. My guesstimate is that the Americas had about 80 million inhabitants in 1492.

And there is actually plenty of other evidence, except from reports by the first explorers. Two weeks ago I was in Yucatn, in the rainforest of the state of Campeche. Nowadays it's only very sparsely populated, but you can still see a Mayan city every ten kilometers. Sometimes you can see the next city from the top of a piramid of another city. The largest cities (Calakmul, Tikal, Palenque) had proabably at least 200.000 inhabitants (I heard somebody claiming Calakmul had a million inhabitants, but that's definately too much) but also most of the smaller cities had 10.000s inhabitants. In the Classic Era Campeche and the Guatemaltec departement of Petn were the most densely populated areas of the world, having at least 10 million inhabitants.
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  Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 01:26
The original number of inhabitants in america has remained a mystery and distorted by 2 schools: those of the "Black Legend" and the "White Legend". The former tends to exaggerate the atrocities of the Spaniards, while the latter tends to play it down as much as possible.
 
The estimation of 2 million comes from the Spanish explorers themselves..., but again explorers/conquerors tend to exaggerate the numbers to impress their superiors.
 
A similar comparison was when Julius Cesar conquered Gaul. Comteporary sources claimed that Gaul had 10 million prior to the conquest. the Legions defeated 3 million warriors, killing 1 million and enslaving another 10 million. Other estimates, however, do not place the ancient Gallic population at more than 3 million in total for their lack of urban concentration.
 
However, I do believe that the Amazon basin was extensively cultivated and urbanised prior to the Spanish conquest, but claiming that 95% got wiped out is unrealistic.
Such things only happen after extensive, large-scale, prolonged contact with germ-carrying Europeans and an interruption to traditional lifestyle. The Amazon basin was a region that was never "colonized" extensively by Europeans, making such senarios difficult to occur.
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  Quote tommy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2007 at 21:35

i think in order to make this clearly, we must carry out digging in the region, not only using satellite to check, to those area whick look like men made, as the photo shown, we need to go there to dig, to find whether there are tools or other men made items

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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2007 at 00:18
I saw an interesting documentary on this subject were the original natives  chucked all their dead into vegetable plots built up through the forests and gradually became huge. The soil of rain forests is thin but by thinking outside the square (or should I say thinking outside the grave)  they could maintain a high level of population in marginal areas.

I know this may make vegetarians spew up their meusli, but the important vegetables in the world, they all come from South America,  were first grown in the nutritious minced up meat of humans and animals!
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2007 at 00:31
Actually, one should be cautious to calculate the number of people in one region by just the physical remains. Humans can produce a quite large impact in the environment even if they are just a small number. In Peru and Chile there are hundred of sea shells mounts that came from the waste of small bands that lived in the pacific coast circa 8.000 years ago. The mounts accumulate with time and give the impression of a large population, which is not the case.
 
The same happened in Easter Island, where just 2.000 people was able to build the culture of the moais and destroy the ecology of the Island in just half a millenium
 
 
 
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  Quote TheARRGH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 19:41
There are a lot of estimates around-but tentatively, most scientists agree that there were a surprisingly large number of people in the amazon-the basin area, at least. This is certainly supported by Orellana's account, as well as by archaeological findings-first of all, the abundance of pottery shards and pieces in the area, and second of all by Terra Preta.

terra preta is a type of dirt found in the amazonian basin area in patches. most of the soil in the area is poor, as nutrients are washed away by the rain. What plants grow on is the rotting remnants of other plants and animals-and sometimes, patches of terra preta. Terra preta is incredibly rich in nutrients, and does not get exhausted by continued farming at all quickly. it's apparently made of organic materials like fishbones, human waste, miscellaneous garbage-and charcoal. Terra preta was apparently manufactured by native societies to aid farming, and thus, a patch of terra preta marks human habitation. There is a patch of large size (about 3 miles long) that presumably had a settlement-and a settlement that could manufacture that much terra preta could ahve had a population of tens of thousands. also, there a quite a lot of artificial earthworks in the amazon, which suggests heavy permanent settlement. Admittedly, we won't actually KNOW for quite a while, but a lot of evidence seems to suggest heavy habitation.
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  Quote jdalton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 22:41
Originally posted by pinguin

Yes, there was brutality, killings and death, but it is not realistic to believe 90% of the population died in a generation because a single cause.

But it took longer than a generation and there was more than one cause. Smallpox, measles, the flu, the plague, they came in successive waves and traveled far in advance of the Europeans who first brought them. More than that, the diseases would return every generation or so and attack the population all over again (or anyone born after the last epidemic at any rate). I don't know if it counts as a genocide when most of the disease-related deaths were unintentional (smallpox blankets being an important exception!), and I won't pretend to know what the population of the Americas was, but I wouldn't discount the higher estimates until there's more evidence.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 23:34
Originally posted by jdalton

Originally posted by pinguin

Yes, there was brutality, killings and death, but it is not realistic to believe 90% of the population died in a generation because a single cause.

But it took longer than a generation and there was more than one cause. Smallpox, measles, the flu, the plague, they came in successive waves and traveled far in advance of the Europeans who first brought them. More than that, the diseases would return every generation or so and attack the population all over again (or anyone born after the last epidemic at any rate). I don't know if it counts as a genocide when most of the disease-related deaths were unintentional (smallpox blankets being an important exception!), and I won't pretend to know what the population of the Americas was, but I wouldn't discount the higher estimates until there's more evidence.
 
Well, we have some indirect evidence in two sources. The colonial records of the Spaniards in places like Mexico city and Cuzco show the impact on Amerindians, but it is quite easily to see the population not only survived but even increased in numbers.
 
What has to be consideres, al least in Hispanic America and Brazil, is that mixing was quite fast, and in a few decades there was more mixed people than pure natives. Only pure natives were counted as such, so theirs numbers were decreasing mainly because admixture.
 
One of the populations that suffer the most the infectious disseases were the Natives of the Southern Patagonia, just across the Antactic. They were 4.000 people at the beginning of the 20th century. Today there are about 4.000 mixed descendents. Theirs numbers decreased, in genetical terms, circa 50% in a century. I believe that's the worst case scenario.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 
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