Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

AmericasWheel
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
edgewaters View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Snake in the Grass-Banned

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2394 		  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: AmericasWheel
    Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 19:47
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by edgewaters

Pinguin's pictures have hurt my brain. They are even more frustrating and maddening than the toy alone.


Why so? Well, I have seen in local museums wonders of the Peruvian metalurgic. Besides, we are a mining country so we have colections of those items as well. Natives produced bells of the size of the used in old schools, also bells for llamas, axes, weapons, coins, pinsand lot of things in metal. In pottery they were even more skillful because, as I mention one time, they made portraits in pottery like westerners had paintings.


Even more, they had wind furnaces that worked continuosly and authomatically channelling the mountain winds to melt metals.


So, those objects don't surprise me at all.


Pinguin



Well the toy is particularly maddening because nobody just invents a wheel with axle and bearing out of thin air. It is the product of centuries, perhaps millenia, of using proto-wheel forms for carrying loads, even if it came from the potter's wheel and not the log roller/sled combination. So it is a big mystery, and mysteries drive me crazy.

But then you go and show us flywheels and millstones and sprockets ...

The toy drove me insane enough!



Edited by edgewaters - 23-Jul-2007 at 19:48
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 19:51
Originally posted by elenos

..
Now that you have told me of the betting and how they still play the game (not like they have the Roman games anymore!) the similarities are more amazing. I did see one article of known instances of the original natives using rubber webbing to hold large items and a kind of rubber rope. You don't mean "Jai alai" as a ball game do you? (sure I spelt that wrong) What size balls are used in the present games?
 
 
Here is the way the game is played
 
 
And this site is a MUST SEE IT.
 
 
The game today is called ULAMA and is still played:
 
 
 
 
Photo:%20Guillermo%20Aldana
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Other link, where to look at:
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 23-Jul-2007 at 19:59
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 20:00
Originally posted by edgewaters

...
Well the toy is particularly maddening because nobody just invents a wheel with axle and bearing out of thin air. It is the product of centuries, perhaps millenia, of using proto-wheel forms for carrying loads, even if it came from the potter's wheel and not the log roller/sled combination. So it is a big mystery, and mysteries drive me crazy.

But then you go and show us flywheels and millstones and sprockets ...

The toy drove me insane enough!
 
LOLLOLLOL
 
Yes, the Americas are still a mysterious land, full of surprises. That's what I like about its study.
 
Pinguin
 
Back to Top
elenos View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-Jun-2007
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1457 		  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 00:28

When looking at the picture of the wheeled toy, I wonder if what seems like wheels are a distraction. If the natives of a pre-wheel culture wanted to suggest movement by a toy animal they would put rollers underneath, which the picture clearly shows. We can go further and say are the ends really wheels as we know them or part of a solid state dumbbell shaped device? The wheels may roll at all, but could suggest the attachment of rubber pads to make the pulling or pushing of larger objects easier. 

The many uses of rubber suggest how far their technology went. Hard rubber, soft rubber, spongy rubber and so on, hey we had to rediscover all that and we are still learning!

 Photo two has been explained as weapons, but how would you train to use such weapons without killing you own men in the process? Again no problem to those with a rubber technology, use rubber weapons for training and use rubber mats to learn to leap and so brain your opponent when handling the real thing.

 Photo three has a man that looks like he jumping from trampoline device with pigtails flying in the air from his head, He jumps so high the figures beneath him look small. Only the use of rubber could make this possible

 Photo seven could be a ball hoop, but could be a birthstone the same objects were found in Neothilic Europe and signify rebirth or being born again from the earth mother.  
elenos
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 11:55
elenos,
 
I can't get you. Sorry, but I don't understand what has to do the knowledge of the rubber with the application of the wheel. Yes, I know modern cars use rubber wheels and that Mayans knew vulcanization before the Europeans. But I can't graps what is the relation you are looking for.
 
By the way, the weapons are Peruvians and rubber is Mesoamerican.


Edited by pinguin - 24-Jul-2007 at 11:56
Back to Top
elenos View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-Jun-2007
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1457 		  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 19:52
I said earlier about brainstorming, us guys getting together to work out what could be used in place of the wheel, but nobody took up the challenge. I went ahead and pointed out how the early use of rubber could have possibly halted any invention of the wheel.

Rubber is amazing for when treated in different ways it has different properties. You said the Mayans knew vulcanization, that would lead some to conclude they knew a lot more that we don't about. Rubber can be made extremely slippery when treated in various ways. Sliding rather than rolling can be used be for shifting heavy weights.

"By the way, the weapons are Peruvians and rubber is Mesoamerican."

Quite so, but we are brain storming, meaning any idea is better than none. I am inviting others to share their ideas, on how rubber could have been used and without regard for where. If people don't agree on my rubber theory for moving weights, then be my guest and share some other possible ideas, bearing in mind the way the people lived of course.
elenos
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jul-2007 at 22:59
Interesting theory. However, there is not evidence of it at all.
What's known is that Mayans carried loads at foot.
 
Back to Top
red clay View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
Tomato Master Emeritus

Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 00:21
Originally posted by elenos

I said earlier about brainstorming, us guys getting together to work out what could be used in place of the wheel, but nobody took up the challenge. I went ahead and pointed out how the early use of rubber could have possibly halted any invention of the wheel.

Rubber is amazing for when treated in different ways it has different properties. You said the Mayans knew vulcanization, that would lead some to conclude they knew a lot more that we don't about. Rubber can be made extremely slippery when treated in various ways. Sliding rather than rolling can be used be for shifting heavy weights.

"By the way, the weapons are Peruvians and rubber is Mesoamerican."

Quite so, but we are brain storming, meaning any idea is better than none. I am inviting others to share their ideas, on how rubber could have been used and without regard for where. If people don't agree on my rubber theory for moving weights, then be my guest and share some other possible ideas, bearing in mind the way the people lived of course.
 
 
 
Certain Herbal substances can, when introduced into the system, produce this effect.  It is most certain to happen when 4-5 likeminded share the aformentioned Herbal substance.
 
 
 
 
                                                         Big%20smile
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
Back to Top
elenos View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-Jun-2007
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1457 		  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 00:28
If the mountain won't come to Mohamed then Mohamed must go to the mountain! Right at the beginning of the thread edgewaters pasted some nicely colored diagrams on the way rollers could have been used. Carrying loads on foot is for cavemen which the Mayans were not.

Could Mayans could move blocks a hundred times their own weight by dragging or pushing the blocks along? How did they lift these huge stones up the side of a temple without using a block and tackle? Carrying by loads foot is hardly an original idea, nor proven as the right one. Is there any technology that you have known, seen or heard of more advanced than just the use of manual labor?
elenos
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 00:32
Rollers? Wink
Back to Top
elenos View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-Jun-2007
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1457 		  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 00:50
That may help to keep the ideas rolling along, what kind of rollers would you suggest?
elenos
Back to Top
edgewaters View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Snake in the Grass-Banned

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2394 		  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 01:17
Originally posted by elenos

When
looking at the picture of the wheeled toy, I wonder if what seems like wheels are
a distraction. If the natives of a pre-wheel culture wanted to suggest movement
by a toy animal they would put rollers underneath, which the picture clearly shows.


Well, if those bits rotate, then they're wheels not rollers. They have wheels, an axle, and bearings.

We can go further and say are the ends really wheels as we know them or part of
a solid state dumbbell shaped device?


I'm fairly certain the wheel bits do rotate. Why would they put dumbbells on the bottom of an animal anyway?

The wheels may roll at all, but could
suggest the attachment of rubber pads to make the pulling or pushing of larger
objects easier.


Unless you're implying that they had rubber tires on wheels, then no, rubber would actually make it quite difficult to move objects. That's why cars stop so well when the brakes are applied and the tires stop spinning - rubber (whether hard or soft) generates an incredible amount of friction with surfaces it rubs against largely because of its elasticity, which causes high adhesion due to deformation. If cars had wooden tires, braking would be very difficult because wood has very low elasticity and therefore does not adhere well.

No matter how slippery the rubber may be, the fact that it is elastic and deforms to match the surfaces it is in contact with causes adhesion when sliding. Even on ice, rubber tires exhibit this effect if the surface is at all rough and not perfectly smooth.

Moreover sliding rubber generates a particularly large amount of drag when the object it supports is heavy, again, due to deformation:





Edited by edgewaters - 25-Jul-2007 at 01:30
Back to Top
elenos View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-Jun-2007
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1457 		  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 02:23

Edgewaters said; "Well, if those bits rotate, then they're wheels not rollers. They have wheels, an axle, and bearings."  

Edgewaters also said; There's a real mystery with those toys, which makes me wonder if maybe we're wrong about the wheel in the Americas.

Ditto; True, but there was not a lack of machinery - the Inca had a highly developed textiles industry which rivalled anything in Europe at the time of discovery, and it was using complex looms and a system of mass production.

Ditto; The Inca (and their Andean predecessors) had an intense understanding of basic hydraulic principles and textile manufacturing. What's interesting is that it's the combination of these two things, plus the wheel, that essentially gave birth to the industrial revolution - in the form of the spinning jenny and the waterframe, ultimately combined in the spinning mule. The lack of the applied use of the wheel may have potentially cost the Inca more dearly than anyone realizes.

Ditto The thing is that the wheel, in the Old World, didn't just suddenly appear in complete form; it evolved gradually. But here, in a place where this process of technological evolution is never supposed to have occurred, is a fully developed wheel featuring the axle and bearing. I am a little skeptical of the notion that someone just invented it out of the blue, as that's just not the way it happened in the Old World. It was a very gradual process and involved alot of practical usages of proto-wheel forms.
An endlessly frustrating mystery, totally maddening ...

Ditto: Sleds would do.

 Ditto; The point about the rollers is that we accept rollers were used, without any evidence that they had them, why do we say they didn't have the wheel just because we haven't found one? Have we found a sled or roller?

There are many types of debaters, those who come in with an open mind, those with a closed mind, those who argue, and those playing games.  Im in the first category and stuff the rest. Im not interested in saying the same things over and over again. If you really are interested an open exchange of ideas then I am too. I like you last questions but I have answered most of them already. If you find something you can agree with  then let's discuss that shall we?  
elenos
Back to Top
edgewaters View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Snake in the Grass-Banned

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2394 		  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 02:33
I'm not following you, sorry.

I'm merely pointing out that for rubber to be a good material to use for moving heavy loads, it has to be in a rolling form, ie a tire (or perhaps rubber-treated rollers - now there's an idea - it would almost be like having caterpillar treads). Sliding rubber is a very poor way of trying to move a heavy load, you'd be better off with stone, metal, or wood. Rolling rubber has advantages for sure - it's bouncy and it deforms so it is not impeded by small obstacles (rocks, rough surfaces, etc). The same adhesion and deformation effect that causes so much friction for sliding rubber, has a different effect with rolling rubber - it gives traction.

I'm not sure why this point would cause you to imply that I have a closed mind or that I'm playing games, or what your quotations are supposed to reveal. Please elaborate.

Edited by edgewaters - 25-Jul-2007 at 02:54
Back to Top
elenos View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-Jun-2007
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1457 		  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 03:04
I will elaborate when you put forward your ideas of how they could have possibly moved those blocks around to the extent that we know they did. I get it, I hear you, you don't agree with my theory, but I have said it is theory. Are you going to tell us what you think about other possible means or not?  
elenos
Back to Top
edgewaters View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Snake in the Grass-Banned

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2394 		  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 05:15
Originally posted by elenos

I will elaborate when you put forward your ideas of how they could have possibly moved those blocks around to the extent that we know they did.


Well, its not really germane. The topic is wheels not other things. So my main attention is focussed on things like the wheeled toys here. Your focus may have shifted from the subject of the thread, but mine hasn't and I'm not really interested in shifting focus (not that there's anything wrong with shifting focus in the course of a thread sometimes, just that I remain interested in wheels).

As for movement of large objects without wheels, there are many many ways which we are all familiar with - rollers, sleds, levers, A-frames and so on. None of these were beyond their capacities, all are capable of the job, so that's not really what I'm interested in, except as they relate to the question of the wheel.

What I'm interested in, in the context of this thread, is the wheel in the Americas.

Edited by edgewaters - 25-Jul-2007 at 05:22
Back to Top
elenos View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-Jun-2007
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1457 		  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 05:40
Originally posted by edgewaters

What I'm interested in, in the context of this thread, is the wheel in the Americas.


I'm interested in the context of this thread as well, but there were no wheels. Admit it! Be there or be square! Think of an alternative based on the bulk of the evidence. Frankly, waving around a toy as your best shot just doesn't cut it. We would need more of them and real examples to form an opinion. At the moment your wheel theory is only just a theory among others. And you are saying that is all you are interested in end of discussion and and no other correspondence will be entered into?
elenos
Back to Top
edgewaters View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Snake in the Grass-Banned

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2394 		  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 05:56
Originally posted by elenos

I'm interested in the context of this thread as well, but there were no wheels. Admit it! Be there or be square! Think of an alternative based on the bulk of the evidence.


Isn't the wheel one such alternative? I mean, on what grounds do you say "wheel no, rollers (or whatever) yes"? It's not like there's any evidence for anything other than carrying things by foot, llama and travois. All we have is a question, no answers.

The fact of true wheels being present in miniature opens up a line of inquiry. No other alternative presents anything to open up a line of inquiry.

We would need more of them and real examples to form an opinion.


Same goes for any other particular alternative.

And you are saying that is all you are interested in end of discussion and and no other correspondence will be entered into?


I might be drawn into discussion on other possibilities but it's not something I myself am going to start.
Back to Top
elenos View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-Jun-2007
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1457 		  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 06:18
Hmm. you way of answering questions is indeed unique. The wheel as an alternative to the wheel? I would never have thought of that!
elenos
Back to Top
red clay View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
Tomato Master Emeritus

Joined: 14-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jul-2007 at 06:27
Originally posted by elenos

Originally posted by edgewaters

What I'm interested in, in the context of this thread, is the wheel in the Americas.


I'm interested in the context of this thread as well, but there were no wheels. Admit it! Be there or be square! Think of an alternative based on the bulk of the evidence. Frankly, waving around a toy as your best shot just doesn't cut it. We would need more of them and real examples to form an opinion. At the moment your wheel theory is only just a theory among others. And you are saying that is all you are interested in end of discussion and and no other correspondence will be entered into?
 
 
Elenos, your a classic.  If you can say that after three days,  you haven't been paying attention.
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 23456>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.