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Topic ClosedWerer the Egyptians white or black?

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Werer the Egyptians white or black?
    Posted: 08-Jan-2012 at 16:46
Originally posted by Fula

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

With what I can gather so far, things still look to be inconclusive.

Attempts to extract ancient DNA or aDNA from Ancient Egyptian remains have yielded mainly Eurasian DNA types from the Dakleh Oasis cemetery site (from Southern Egypt), and they show a considerable increase in the amount of sub Saharan mitchondrial DNA over the past 2,000 years, suggesting that within this timeframe there was more migration from Sub-Saharan Africa to the Nile Valley than from Eurasia to the latter. One successful study was performed on ancient mummies of the 12th Dynasty, by Paabo and Di Rienzo, which identified multiple lines of descent, a minority of which originated in sub-Saharan Africa. Contamination from handling and intrusion from microbes have also created obstacles to recovery of Ancient DNA. Consequently most DNA studies have been carried out on modern Egyptian populations with the intent of learning about the influences of historical migrations on the population of Egypt.


First of all we don't know which haplotypes they are calling "Eurasian" in this study. I recall an article that examined the origins of the so called "Arabian haplotype" V. Upon closer examination it was show that V is almost totally restricted to North Africa showing very little presence in the Levant and totally absent in Arabia.  Also, exactly which area of Subsaharan Africa did they use as a base line? Quite often when you check, the sub saharan samples in these studies include pygmies, San, and west African groups rather than Saharan or East African groups.  So I would take that study with a grain of salt.
Pharoahs/mummies tend to not represent the population very well (Foreign intermarriage and relations).

IMO...It is clear that Egypt started out as a black African civilization and then later became influenced by foreign people. This is true for just about every civilization on the planet. I can only imagine if they did a study on America 5,000 years later and concluded that it was a white civilization influenced only by white people by looking at the Presidents. Or declaring that white people built the pyramids in Mexico etc...

We have to remember that Nubia is Older than Egypt... The people and culture of Egypt began as native African people. Like I said before Hunefer states where the Egytians came from We came from the beginning of the Nile were god Hapi dwells, at the foothills of the Mountains of the Moon" [Great Lakes Region - central Africa]




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jan-2012 at 17:45
Originally posted by medenaywe

Afrohistory,read about Hubians in Egypt,it has never been disputed this presence of black people in Egypt.
They had ruled Upper Egypt,I suppose.Lower Egypt was land of lot of colors people,also white people.White pharaohs ruled Egyptian land also.This did not exclude existence of black people and others in Egypt from the beginning.
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In Bulgarian language they still use "KM" as "toward inside",it gives direction!It still sounds the same.Translated it means the same.
 
Yeah, saying there were black people in Ancient Egypt and admitting that Ancient Egypt was a black civilization are two very different things. The Lower and Upper Egypt was ruled by the same Pharaoh since 3000 B.C. It wasn't until the Middle Kingdom(2134-1690 B.C) when Egypt began interating with foreign people, notably the Libyans. The Libyans were describe as "white" all except for the Tehenu, and they were describe as being on the "lowest rung of civilization." They were more of a nuisance than anything, constantly raiding Egypt and the Egyptians. The Libyans were sometimes employed as mercenaries and police by Egypt. The last ruler of the Middle Kingdom( around 1785 B.C.) allowed for Asiatics to settle into the Delta region as laborers, which later bite them in the butt when these settlers tried to overtake Egypt. They suceeded and were called Hyksos, which translate to "foreign rulers." They ruled Lower Egypt by the fifthteenth dynasty, and were later expelled by the end of the seventeen dyanasty. Lower and Upper Egypt were combined once more.
 
It wasn't until 525 B.C when Egypt finally lost its independence to the Persians during the Late Period(664 to323 B.C.). After that, Egypt was ruled by other nations and the power it once had was long gone. It was during this time when Egypt was had lost their independence, it is believed that migrations of the true Egyptians took place and people spread throughout Africa. Tribes all over Africa had cultural and linguistics  connections to Ancient Egypt, from the Dogon of Mali to the Yoruba of Nigeria.
 
Ancient Eypt was created by black people who occupied both Upper and Lower Egypt. It wasn't until much later in history where interactions were made between foreign people. Even then, it still wouldn't have been called a mixed civilization since it was still majority black and the foreign people in the land didn't contribute much to Egyptian civilization. A mixed civilization would be a civilization who began as a mixture of two races, and Ancient Egypt was not one of them.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2012 at 07:07
Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

Originally posted by Fula

 

Pharoahs/mummies tend to not represent the population very well (Foreign intermarriage and relations).

IMO...It is clear that Egypt started out as a black African civilization and then later became influenced by foreign people. This is true for just about every civilization on the planet. I can only imagine if they did a study on America 5,000 years later and concluded that it was a white civilization influenced only by white people by looking at the Presidents. Or declaring that white people built the pyramids in Mexico etc...

We have to remember that Nubia is Older than Egypt... The people and culture of Egypt began as native African people. Like I said before Hunefer states where the Egytians came from We came from the beginning of the Nile were god Hapi dwells, at the foothills of the Mountains of the Moon" [Great Lakes Region - central Africa]

If it was so clear then it wouldn't of been so hard to clear up, and as we know there still seems to be some confusion. As for origin stories, they are notoriously frail.
 
Good point about the origin stories... The reason its been so hard to clear up are due to numerous reasons stated before mentioning it again will just be boring repetition and I dont want the convo to go that way. Point taken tho
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2012 at 07:31
Nubia Older than Egypt...
 
 
 
King Narmer...Considered First Egyptian Ruler. Unified Upper and Lower Egypt
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2012 at 07:42
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by TheAlaniDragonRising

[QUOTE=Fula] 

Pharoahs/mummies tend to not represent the population very well (Foreign intermarriage and relations).

IMO...It is clear that Egypt started out as a black African civilization and then later became influenced by foreign people. This is true for just about every civilization on the planet. I can only imagine if they did a study on America 5,000 years later and concluded that it was a white civilization influenced only by white people by looking at the Presidents. Or declaring that white people built the pyramids in Mexico etc...

We have to remember that Nubia is Older than Egypt... The people and culture of Egypt began as native African people. Like I said before Hunefer states where the Egytians came from We came from the beginning of the Nile were god Hapi dwells, at the foothills of the Mountains of the Moon" [Great Lakes Region - central Africa]

If it was so clear then it wouldn't of been so hard to clear up, and as we know there still seems to be some confusion. As for origin stories, they are notoriously frail.

I've tried to find a copy of this text and have not been able to. Has anyone else been able to find a primary source? 
 
According to Yosefben-Jochannan the qoute from Hunefer is in the library of Syracuse University in New York:
"It was there at that time, a copy of which is in the library of Syracuse University in New York, and I quote from the hieratic writing, "We came from the beginning of the Nile where God Hapi dwells, at the foothills of The Mountains of the Moon."
 


Edited by Fula - 09-Jan-2012 at 07:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2013 at 22:15
I just wanted to say, Obviously the Egyptians were BLACK! In africa there is intense sun.. how could you be caucasian and endure that?

If you stand in the sun too long you will get tanner right?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Mar-2013 at 23:19
"I just wanted to say, Obviously the Egyptians were BLACK! In africa there is intense sun.. how could you be caucasian and endure that?  If you stand in the sun too long you will get tanner right?"
 
That was a splendid little raft of assumptions.  Firstly, Lower Egypt is not equatorial. Second, all humans evolved in Africa and moved out.  They evolved and changed along the way.  Some Egyptians were actually Greek-speakers who migrated back to African and mostly likely would have resembled the other Greek-speakers who appear to be Caucasian (whatever that means).  Lastly, simply living an equatorial region does not make a person "black."  There are many residents of Hawaii, Brazil, and Singapore who are light-skinned for many different reasons such as migration and actual albinism.  So, while Egyptians may have indeed got quite a tan living along the banks of the Nile, acquired traits are not passed on genetically as Lemarck seemed to think they were.
 
I have no clue what ancient Egyptians REALLY looked like but if they were Semitic speaking, they probably would have looked a bit like their cousins in Yemen and Arabia.  If they were Greek-speaking, they would have probably looked like their cousins around modern-day Athens.  And if they were Nubians, I bet they would have looked like the people who live in the Upper-Nile today.   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2013 at 01:23
Originally posted by Patryk

"I just wanted to say, Obviously the Egyptians were BLACK! In africa there is intense sun.. how could you be caucasian and endure that?  If you stand in the sun too long you will get tanner right?"


Arabic people are caucasoid people Wink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabid_race
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2013 at 01:44
Originally posted by Ollios

Originally posted by Patryk

"I just wanted to say, Obviously the Egyptians were BLACK! In africa there is intense sun.. how could you be caucasian and endure that?  If you stand in the sun too long you will get tanner right?"


Arabic people are caucasoid people Wink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabid_race
 
Sorry, I failed to properly attribute that quote to the guy above me.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2013 at 11:33
The ancient Egyptians looked just like modern Egyptians: Mixed skin colour ranging from brown to tanned white. According to the ancient Greeks, they were dark (compared to the Greeks, of course). 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2013 at 12:20
Originally posted by TITAN_

The ancient Egyptians looked just like modern Egyptians: Mixed skin colour ranging from brown to tanned white. According to the ancient Greeks, they were dark (compared to the Greeks, of course). 
 
I dont believe this to be true...Egypt was conquered and ruled by several different people.  most modern day countries dont reflect  their ancient past. Do ancient Puerto Ricans look like modern-day Puerto Ricans?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2013 at 13:19
Originally posted by Fula

Originally posted by TITAN_

The ancient Egyptians looked just like modern Egyptians: Mixed skin colour ranging from brown to tanned white. According to the ancient Greeks, they were dark (compared to the Greeks, of course). 
 
I dont believe this to be true...Egypt was conquered and ruled by several different people.  most modern day countries dont reflect  their ancient past. Do ancient Puerto Ricans look like modern-day Puerto Ricans?


Ancient Egyptians were conquered by many tribes but the most important genetic influence came from the Arabs. That explains why Egyptians look like Arabs today. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Mar-2013 at 14:11
Originally posted by TITAN_

Originally posted by Fula

Originally posted by TITAN_

The ancient Egyptians looked just like modern Egyptians: Mixed skin colour ranging from brown to tanned white. According to the ancient Greeks, they were dark (compared to the Greeks, of course). 
 
I dont believe this to be true...Egypt was conquered and ruled by several different people.  most modern day countries dont reflect  their ancient past. Do ancient Puerto Ricans look like modern-day Puerto Ricans?


Ancient Egyptians were conquered by many tribes but the most important genetic influence came from the Arabs. That explains why Egyptians look like Arabs today. 
 
Thats the point im making. Just because they are Arabs today does not mean they were Arabs in the Ancient past. Actually, I think its quite obvious that they werent.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2013 at 01:08
Originally posted by Fula

 
I dont believe this to be true...Egypt was conquered and ruled by several different people.  most modern day countries dont reflect  their ancient past. Do ancient Puerto Ricans look like modern-day Puerto Ricans?

Originally posted by TITAN_

Ancient Egyptians were conquered by many tribes but the most important genetic influence came from the Arabs. That explains why Egyptians look like Arabs today. 
Originally posted by Fula


Thats the point im making. Just because they are Arabs today does not mean they were Arabs in the Ancient past. Actually, I think its quite obvious that they werent.


This is unsolved problem. Even some people think that they were Tatar and Turanid. How will we make a decision?

"Turanid race hypothesis

The Egyptologist Samuel Sharpe (1846) proposed the ancient Egyptians belonged to the Turanid race, linking them to the Tatars, because some ancient Egyptian paintings depict Egyptians with sallow or yellowish skin. He said "From the colour given to the women in their paintings we learn that their skin was yellow, like that of the Mongul Tartars, who have given their name to the Mongolian variety of the human race...The single lock of hair on the young nobles reminds us also of the Tartars."[108] However, it is now largely agreed that Dynastic Egyptians were indigenous to the Nile area, in Africa"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy.

also you are write about the most of people in new world, don't have any connection with local ancient people. However there is also opposite side of it? After the many immigration, people of Anatolia still have strong connection with Anatolian who lived before the Turks. Frequency of some disease are same in Turks, Armenians and Syrian Arabs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Familial_Mediterranean_fever

"Mitochondrial analysis of a Byzantine population reveals the differential impact of multiple historical events in South Anatolia

The archaeological site of Sagalassos is located in Southwest Turkey, in the western part of the Taurus mountain range. Human occupation of its territory is attested from the late 12th millennium BP up to the 13th century AD. By analysing the mtDNA variation in 85 skeletons from Sagalassos dated to the 11th–13th century AD, this study attempts to reconstruct the genetic signature potentially left in this region of Anatolia by the many civilizations, which succeeded one another over the centuries until the mid-Byzantine period (13th century BC). Authentic ancient DNA data were determined from the control region and some SNPs in the coding region of the mtDNA in 53 individuals. Comparative analyses with up to 157 modern populations allowed us to reconstruct the origin of the mid-Byzantine people still dwelling in dispersed hamlets in Sagalassos, and to detect the maternal contribution of their potential ancestors. By integrating the genetic data with historical and archaeological information, we were able to attest in Sagalassos a significant maternal genetic signature of Balkan/Greek populations, as well as ancient Persians and populations from the Italian peninsula. Some contribution from the Levant has been also detected, whereas no contribution from Central Asian population could be ascertained."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3083616/




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2013 at 01:29
Where did they learn to speak than?SmileWe all use their former syllables Olios.Pharaohs rule the World today.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2013 at 16:13
You're the expert on languages Medenaywe. Do Egyptian words (Khemed, Amun-Ra, Memphis, Pharaoh) sound more "African" or "Middle Eastern"?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2013 at 16:42
How did our ancestors speak those days Nick?That's the answer of our question.Lot of words above we knew as slang derivation of their real meaning.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2013 at 17:23
Originally posted by medenaywe

Where did they learn to speak than?SmileWe all use their former syllables Olios.Pharaohs rule the World today.

Which Egyptian syllables do we use? If you are talking about us (=Westerners), we mostly use Greek syllables, prefixes and themes, not Egyptian!  Only Egyptologists speak Egyptian these days.... Ouch
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2013 at 19:07
Originally posted by Fula

 Thats the point im making. Just because they are Arabs today does not mean they were Arabs in the Ancient past. Actually, I think its quite obvious that they werent.
 
I think it is quite obvious that they they were ... well, that they were similar.  The ancient Egyptian language is still spoken regularly today ... sort of ... it survives as the liturgical language of the Coptic Christian minorty which persists (despite the best efforts of the Muslim Brotherhood) in modern Egypt.  The liturgical language of the Copts most likely represents a vernacular commonly spoken around 1500 years -- several hundred years before the Arab conquest.  Granted, ancient Egyption spoken in the year 500 AD is not going to be the same as Egyptian spoken in 5000 BC much as Modern English is not the same as Sanskrit (the oldest recorded Indo-European language).  But using Liturgical Coptic as a base, we can project backwards a few thousand years and still see a language that is clearly Semitic. I think we can make the giant leap that since they spoke a similar language, they probably came from similar genetic stock.
 
In this respect, the Arabs were their cousins much in the way the Norse were the cousins of the Anglo-Saxons who eventually intermarried extensively and whose languages eventually merged into an early version of pre-Norman Anglo-Saxon. 
 
That being said, we can trace waves of migrations that genetically alter a people.  The Lower Egyptians mixed considerably with the Greeks.  The upper Egyptians mixed with Nubians.  But Hejazi Arabs, who invaded Egypt around the year 650 AD are known to be quite light skinned.  But that being said, for centuries, the Hejazi Arabs were simply a ruling class with a distinct language and their own religion used to retain group-cohesion. Until the Crusades, Egypt was still a largely Christian country with a Muslim ruling class.  
 
This is not a case like that of Puerto Rico where the indigenous population was totally replaced circa 1500.  Egypt's population was never replaced.  It as influenced by invaders. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2013 at 23:41
Originally posted by Patryk

Originally posted by Fula

 Thats the point im making. Just because they are Arabs today does not mean they were Arabs in the Ancient past. Actually, I think its quite obvious that they werent.
 
I think it is quite obvious that they they were ... well, that they were similar.  The ancient Egyptian language is still spoken regularly today ... sort of ... it survives as the liturgical language of the Coptic Christian minorty which persists (despite the best efforts of the Muslim Brotherhood) in modern Egypt.  The liturgical language of the Copts most likely represents a vernacular commonly spoken around 1500 years -- several hundred years before the Arab conquest.  Granted, ancient Egyption spoken in the year 500 AD is not going to be the same as Egyptian spoken in 5000 BC much as Modern English is not the same as Sanskrit (the oldest recorded Indo-European language).  But using Liturgical Coptic as a base, we can project backwards a few thousand years and still see a language that is clearly Semitic. I think we can make the giant leap that since they spoke a similar language, they probably came from similar genetic stock.
 
In this respect, the Arabs were their cousins much in the way the Norse were the cousins of the Anglo-Saxons who eventually intermarried extensively and whose languages eventually merged into an early version of pre-Norman Anglo-Saxon. 
 
That being said, we can trace waves of migrations that genetically alter a people.  The Lower Egyptians mixed considerably with the Greeks.  The upper Egyptians mixed with Nubians.  But Hejazi Arabs, who invaded Egypt around the year 650 AD are known to be quite light skinned.  But that being said, for centuries, the Hejazi Arabs were simply a ruling class with a distinct language and their own religion used to retain group-cohesion. Until the Crusades, Egypt was still a largely Christian country with a Muslim ruling class.  
 
This is not a case like that of Puerto Rico where the indigenous population was totally replaced circa 1500.  Egypt's population was never replaced.  It as influenced by invaders. 
I aplogize ahead of time for the length of this post. I've been reading the posts over the past week and  I'd like to clarify a few points. Patryk is correct in that the Coptic language still survives in the Egyptian church today and that it was the end stage of the pharaonic language. Also true that it evolved over time. Just as Shakespearian English is not the same as modern day English. However, there was enough similarity that it was possible to use it to help decode the heiroglyphics by Leon. He actually studied Coptic in France and that was a major factor together with the Rosetta Stone that enabled him to decipher the language.

However, as a language family, Coptic is not Semitic. Coptic belongs to the Afro Asiatic language group. Off all the languages that make up this group Semitic is the youngest and the only one spoken outside of Africa. Therefore the place of origin for this language family is not Asia, but Africa. By the same token, there are more semetic laguages spoken in Africa than there are in Asia as well.

As to the physical appearance of the Egyptians. There never was one physical type that represented all Egyptians at all times. The pharaonic culture of Egypt developed in the south in souther Egypt and northern Sudan, but before they settled in the Nile Valley, they had occupied the Sahara. At that time the Sahara was green and supported a culture that stretched from Egypt and the Sudan in the east clear across to Mali and Niger in the west. This is known from the pottery found across the region. At the time of the green Sahara the Nile Valley was not heavily populated. It was not untill the period of desertification tat you find a significant increase in the number of settlements in the Nile Vally propper.

The people in the south have always been as they are now, relatively dark skinned. However, in the north there were people who were much lighter in complexion. Why? Regional adaptation. While Upper Egypt and Lower Sudan are in the tropical zone, lower Egypt is not. Its sub tropical. One can see the same thing with the San people, the oldest inhabitants of Southern Africa, which also is in the sub tropical zone. The skin tones range from a reddish light brown to a yellowish brown. This is because being in an area that doesn't receive as much solar radiation the skin does not require as much melanin protection.

In terms of hair form there has also been variability. Hair forms range from very kinky to curley, to wavey and straight as can still be seen in the populations of the Sudan and Horn of Africa today. As for genetic affinities, the closest genetic relitives of the Egyptians are the Nubians. And recent genetic findings have shown that Egyptians, particularly southern Egyptians carry a very old maternal line also found in East Africa. On the other hand DNA also shows that all north Africans share the same paternal ancestor PN2 with over 70% of the continent. Other findings show that significant percentage of Egyptiand carry a DNA marker that is found perdominantly in Egypt itself and decreases as you go south into East Africa. I believe it is M78. 

Other recent anthopological studies have shown that with regards to skeletal formation, particularly the lengths of the long bones, even northern Egyptians share colser similarity to other tropical Africans, but not to Eurasians.

One can also look at many cultural practices that still exist to the present day, for instance the practice of female circumcision which is common as far south as Kenya all the way across the Sahel into the norther regions of West Africa. This is something that is not found in Western Asiatic cultures. Even the way Egyptians dance has more in common with East and Central Africans than with the peoples of the Levant and Arabia.

With all the new information, we have to reconsider our perceptions of Africa and its peoples. It makes the question of this thread obsolete for it shows #1 there is no one set of physical features that universally represents all Africans, #2 all Africans do not have dark brown skins. Tropical Africans generally do, but in sub tropical Africa, both north and south light skin is not uncommon, #3 even though northern Egyptians and southern Egyptians may differ in predominant skin colors, they are still part of the same genetic family. A genetic family, the E haplotype, that is native to Africa. 

Therefore, although it is true that over the course of its 3,000yr history Egypt did receive migrations from areas outside Egypt the base population was always native to the continent, physically varied in skin color, hair type and features as can be seen from the statues of the Old Kingdom and genetically related to its closest neighbors in East Africa. The migrations of outsiders only added to the diversity that was already native to Africa and already in place. Our modern day concepts of race and ethnicity are historically very recent and do not reflect the reality of Egypt or any other society in Africa or the world for that matter. Modern scientific evidence is proving this every day.
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