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Achievements of the Byzantines

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Poll Question: What are the lasting achievements of the Byzantine Empire?
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Komnenos View Drop Down
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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Achievements of the Byzantines
    Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 09:37
The Byzantine Empire had over a long period, a very bad press in Western-European historical writing. Especially influential was here Edward Gibbon who in his work Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire portrayed the Byzantines as a decadent, corrupt, bureaucratic and oriental ( in his view, this was an insult ), society that had no right to see itself in the great tradition of Greek or Roman antiquity.
Recently, through the academic works of Steven Runciman and the popular books of John Julius Norwich, not only public interest in the history of the Byzantine Empire has risen, but furthermore the opinions on its merits have undergone a change.
So, what do you think, are the lasting achievements of the Byzantines?
1.     The preservation of Greek and Roman antiquity?
2.     The establishment of Christianity in Europe (Constantine, Theodosius)?
3.     Defending Central Europe against the first wave of Islamic expansion (Arabs)?
4.     The Christianization of Eastern Europe ? (Cyril and Methodius)
5.     Influence on the emergence of the Renaissance ?


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  Quote Aristoteles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 11:51

A bit of everything, I may say. The Byzantine Empire was certainly more progressive than anything Europe had to offer at the time (semi-barbaric feudal west comes to mind) and they did preserve a good deal of the Graeco-Roman tradition, althoug mostly by accident, since their official christian religion was based exactly upon the denial of the Graeco-Roman tradition (menticide seems to have been the official dogma of christianity in East and West, and a tradition of free-thinking, individualistic, science-loving people was not admired among the clergy of the time).

But they did stop the westward expansion of the Muslims at a time when Europe had not the means to defend itself from them (had the Balkans fallen to the Arabs, I think history would be quite different) and they did Christianize the Slavs (a move of extraordinary importance) and also the influence they passed on to the western europe (starting from Italy) after the first fall of Constantinople and after the Ottoman conquest, was indeed one of the cornerstones of the Renaissance.

I wouldn't say that the establishment of Christianity is an "achievement" per se and anyway that was done before the actual "Byzantine" period started.

What about "keeping the candle of progrese lid in the darkest time of Europe"

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  Quote tzar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 12:48

About Cyril and Methodius I'm a little disagreed. Maybe there were living in Byzantium but they weren't Byzantines. They are slavs... Don't you agree?



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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 15:12
Originally posted by tzar

About Cyril and Methodius I'm a little disagreed. Maybe there were living in Byzantium but they weren't Byzantines. They are slavs... Don't you agree?



All I knew about the origin of the two brothers was, that they were born in Thessaloniki and were members of a distinguished Byzantine family. Thus does not necessarily exclude that were of Slav or other origin, but the Catholic Encyclopedia states further that were living in a monastery in Constantinople before they set out on their various missions ( Khazars, Slavs). That suggests that they belonged to the Christian Byzantine cultural area rather than to any other. Anyway, the impetus of their missions came from the centre of Orthodox Christianity, Byzantium
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 16:19
where's the "none at all" option?
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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 16:28
Originally posted by Temujin

where's the "none at all" option?


There isn't one, quite obviously, but you could always explain, why there should be one!
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 16:35
I don't see how any of the options apply, or rather, why they should be attributed to a single country.
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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 16:41
Originally posted by Temujin

I don't see how any of the options apply, or rather, whythey should be attributedto a single country.


You have a point here, however the Byzantine empire was a main and decisive factor in afore mentioned historic events or process, whose outcomes can be seen as achievements,......or not.
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  Quote Thracian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 16:55

i'll go with the 'Christianity in Europe'

Constantinople was after all like Rome only for Orthodox Christianity in the east.

The defense part - they did ask Bulgaria to help out with that 100 000 Arabian army - attack set for conquest of Europe.

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  Quote Infidel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2005 at 12:20

I think that the Christianisation of the East was fairly important. It defined a whole region and culures.

But as somebody stated above, a bit of everything. The Byzantines were a great empire, disgracefully disregarded by western scholars as some degenerated Roman Empire. Fortunately, nowadays, the approach is different and less biased. Especially for the people of Greece, the balkans and at some degree of Western Europe, the Byzantine legacy is felt.

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  Quote Aristoteles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2005 at 12:55
Cyril and Methodios are both Greek, if you care to study the sources you'll find the information.
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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2005 at 14:35
Originally posted by Aristoteles

Cyril and Methodios are both Greek, if you care to study the sources you'll find the information.


In view of recent events, I tried to express this certainty as diplomaticly as possible.
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2005 at 14:44
the greatest laegacy of Byzantium is the battle of Constantinople, the repulse of the Arabsm and the pioneering use of Greek fire which then speread as far as China.  The victory over the Arabs at Constantinople is WAY more importnat than the overrated battles in France.
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  Quote Thracian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2005 at 00:38

Originally posted by Aristoteles

Cyril and Methodios are both Greek, if you care to study the sources you'll find the information.

if they were fully Greek why would they be so conserned with making an alphabet for slavic people.

Cyril is actualy a Bulgarian name and Methodios, with out the -os part.



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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2005 at 01:35
Originally posted by Thracian


if they were fully Greek why would they be so conserned with making an alphabet for slavic people.



Cyril is actualy a Bulgarian name and Methodios, with out the -os part.



With the same logic applied, you could actually state that they were Khazars.Before they set on their missions to the Slavic people, they undertook a similar task amongst the Khazars.
They were professional missionaries. When the Byzantine Orthodox Church was asked to send priests by the Moravians, C&M were assigned to the job, and they invented the Cyrillic script and translated the bible, so they could teach in the indigineous language.

I'm not familiar with Bulgarian language or names, but I would like to point out that there has been a St.Cyril of Alexandria (d.440 AD), a St Cyril of Jerusalem (d.386 AD).......All Bulgarians?


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  Quote Aristoteles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2005 at 03:07

Thank you for stating the facts Komenos. Just a brief point: the "proper" name of Cyril is "Kyrillos", as the proper name of Methodius is "Methodios" (with a delta rather than a "d").

Their mission to the Slavs (all Slavs, not Bulgars in particular btw) was an assignment by the Byzantine Emperor, in an effort to bring the large Slavic populations under the direct influence of Constantinople. It was a political mission, so to say. One of the cases when the side effects overwhelm the prime objective, since the petty geopolitical games of the Byzantines brought a huge body of people into literacy and Orthodoxy.

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  Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2005 at 14:11
As far as I'm concerned, all of the above, though there seems to be some confusion amongst historians on the preservation of antiquity. Some say it was Byzantium; others say the arabs...
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  Quote tzar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2005 at 10:43

Well I can't be agreed with your posiotion that Cyril and Methodius are greeks. First which I want to say is that the only reason because most of people think that Cyril and Methodius are byzantines /i think there is a difference between greeks and byzantines, excuse me if I wrong/  is only because that buzantines history is more popular than bulgarian. Second You can be so sure after your source is only byzantines hronicals. Third - is unlogically  byzantines to creat an alphabet for other nation. Least  because of national spirits. Fourth - to creat alphabet and to translate the bible to other language must know very deeply knowlegde of this language, it's must be your mother tongue. If we suppose that they were byzantines and according to historians who support this verssion they've learnt this language on the local bazar in the Salonika. So tell me how many words would you learn from a bazar. Would you learn so much to transalte such a complex book like the bible? And if you get that in this time people can be compared with today's. This verssion became absolutelly unlogical for me. Even now will be hard for me /for exemple/ to translate the bible from english to bulgarian. There are more proofs but now I am too tired and please I don't want to make any propaganda here. Even I don't want to convinse you that Ciril and Methodius are Bulgarians I just want to make you some doubts about this verssion /that they are byzantines/ and you alone to search for the answers. When most of  you were  reading byzantines history they saw that according to some people Cyril and Methdoius are byzantines and accepted it without any doubts, but before some years even the Pope recognized them as bulgarian saints.Also only bulgarians in the word celebrating the day of slavonic culuture and  writing. So if you are so sure that they are greeks why don't  you celebrate it and would you think that we will kept in high honour greeks or any others nations?????!



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  Quote Thracian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Feb-2005 at 23:35
 
 
"They were the sons of a subordinate military officer named Drungarius, born at Thessalonica, of Greek descent, and a Bulgarian woman."
 
Here is an example of a NON-BULGARIAN SOURCE telling of their descent.
 
Originally posted by Komnenos

Originally posted by Thracian


if they were fully Greek why would they be so conserned with making an alphabet for slavic people.



Cyril is actualy a Bulgarian name and Methodios, with out the -os part.




I'm not familiar with Bulgarian language or names, but I would like to point out that there has been a St.Cyril of Alexandria (d.440 AD), a St Cyril of Jerusalem (d.386 AD).......All Bulgarians?

well sory bout that u ar right.



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  Quote Komnenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Feb-2005 at 08:23
Let's look at the facts:
Some Bulgarian sites, by far not all I looked up, mention that the two brothers had a Greek father and a Bulgarian mother, they all agree that they had Greek names( Cyril was baptized as Constantine), that they were born in Thessaloniki, were educated in Konstantinople and lived all their lives in the Byzantine Empire, unless they were send out on a mission to various people of the Middle East and Eastern Europe.
That makes them Bulgarian?
Even if they had a Bulgarian mother, their entire cultural and intellectual background was that of the Byzantine Orthodox Church and Empire.
Furthermore, the script they invented, was originally not conceived for the Old-Bulgarian, but the Moravian Slavic langauge, spoken by a people that lived in present day CSR and Slovakia. The Bulgarians only adopted it later.
I do not want to make propanda either, it just annoys me, as a complete neutral between Greeks and Bulgarians, that historical facts are ignored for the sake of misguided patriotic pride.
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