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The language of Huns
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The language of Huns
    Posted: 29-Jun-2007 at 23:41
Do you guys have any sources about the language of Huns? I found this info on the Wikipedia forum on Attila:
 
 
"Second, the ethnic and linguistic identity of the European Huns is not at all certain; they were probably proto-Mongolian or proto-Turkic, but without knowledge of their language (scholars know exactly one word, strava, which means something like funeral) we can't say for sure."
 
Does anybody have anybody have more sources on that?
 
I'm just feeling surprised that only one word from the Hunnish language is known. Besides, this word IMO looks very Slavic. For example, Strava means meals or food in Chezch.
 
Any ideas on that ?
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Posts: 3224 		  Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 00:42
I think there is a lot of debate about Hunnic linguistics. This site gives a good analysis of many aspects of Hun Society, including linguistics.
http://www.republicanchina.org/Hun.html

Extract:
"A research via linguistics could help in determining the ethnicity of the Huns. There are three branches in the Altaic language family: Mongolian, Turkic and Tunguzic. While Mongolian and Turkic share many similarities, possibly because of the fact that the Mongolians relied on Uygur Turks for creation of the Mongolian written language and consequent inter-exchange, the Tunguzic branch is very much a separate branch which would include today's Manchurians, Koreans and some Yayoi-origin Japanese. Conventional wisdom points to some speculation that the Huns belong to the Turkic branch. Though no linguist existed at that time to study the Hun language, it seemed that the Han Chinese had no difficulty in communicating with the Huns. Zhang Qian the Han emissary had hired a Hun guide for the purpose of travelling to Central Asia, not for interpretation. The Huns were very enthusiastic in retaining Chinese as ministers in their court. At one point in time, the Huns had worn Chinese clothes sent over by the Han emperors. They discarded the Chinese clothing after they were told that the Chinese emperors tried to 'sinicize' them by tricking them into silk clothing instead of the cavalry clothing. "
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Posts: 0 		  Quote Explorador Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2007 at 15:21

Why is only one word known? If someone had tried to learn Hun words, probably funeral wasn't the most useful for a conversation...

Maybe strava was they way some Slavic guy thought that word was written.
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Posts: 781 		  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2007 at 17:31
About Asian Huns (Xiongnu), there is the quote from Weishu 91:
 
"高车，盖古赤狄之余种也，初号为狄历，北方以为敕勒，诸夏以为高车、丁零。其语略与匈奴同而时有小异，或云其先匈奴之甥也。"
 
Translation: Gaoche, all the remnants of old Chidi, original name was Dili, in the north known as Chile, among Xias known as Gaoche, Dingling. Their language is same as Xiongnu with small difference, or can be said the nephews of Xiongnu.
 
From Suishu, we know that Tiele was known as Gaoche (High cart), and the Turkic tribes were listed as Tiele.
 
So it's clear Xiongnu (Asian Huns) spoke Turkic language.
 
As for the european Huns, I have to again quote from the work of O. Maenchen-Helfen:
 

To judge by the tribal names, a great part of the Huns must have spoken a Turkish language. Ultinur and Alpilur are as Turkish as Bug-or, the Pecheneg tribal names ending in , and the Kirghiz tribal and clan names ending in oro. Another common ending in Turkish tribal names, -gur, occurs in Kutrigur, Utigur, Onogur, Bittugur, *Tongur, and *Ugur. On the analogy with Ultinur, Ultingir, ending in -gir like other definitely Turkish ethnic names, must likewise be Turkish. The same is true for Bardor = Var-dor and Ultindur.

The personal names give a different picture.

The names of the Attilanic Huns are as follows:
   Turkish or probably Turkish: Basich, Berichos, Dengizich, Ellac, Emnetzur, Erekan, Eskam, Mundzucus, Oebarsios, Uldin, Ultzindur;
   Germanic or Germanized: Attila, Bleda, Edekon, Laudaricus, Onegesius, Ruga;
   Persian: Hormidac;
   Hybrid: Kursich, Tuldila;
   Unknown origin: Adamis, Charaton, Ernach, Esla, Mama, Octar, Skotta.  

 
 
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2007 at 19:36
Do we have any words from Hunnish, besides the names of the tribes?
 
Where do you think this info about the word Strava comes from?
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2007 at 08:28
Golden says they spoke Turkish.
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Posts: 241 		  Quote minchickie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jul-2007 at 23:42
Golden says they spoke Turkish.

There is no proof of their language at all let alone proof of who they really were. Fact is when Magyars (hungarians) came into europe follwing the Huns they brought with them a strange language unrelated to anything  else known and names like Atilla while Turks did not have this name, Also Ottomans referred to Magyars as HUNgarians. Huns were a Eurasian people but that does not mean they were Turks at all just alot of Turks like to claim this but nothing can be 100% proved because there was no written language left from Huns or any other evidence to say who they are related to. Attila is the number one boys/mens name in Hungary since they came into Europe in 890.
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Posts: 1919 		  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2007 at 05:48
eheh no even today Turks call them Macar and the country is called Macaristan
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Posts: 384 		  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2007 at 11:04
Originally posted by minchickie

Golden says they spoke Turkish.

There is no proof of their language at all let alone proof of who they really were. Fact is when Magyars (hungarians) came into europe follwing the Huns they brought with them a strange language unrelated to anything  else known and names like Atilla while Turks did not have this name, Also Ottomans referred to Magyars as HUNgarians. Huns were a Eurasian people but that does not mean they were Turks at all just alot of Turks like to claim this but nothing can be 100% proved because there was no written language left from Huns or any other evidence to say who they are related to. Attila is the number one boys/mens name in Hungary since they came into Europe in 890.
 
No, it isn't. Can you tell me a famous Attila between Attila and Jzsef Attila?


Edited by Tar Szernd - 10-Jul-2007 at 11:05
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Posts: 313 		  Quote Kerimoglu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2007 at 03:26
Huns have not much to do with Madyars
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Posts: 384 		  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2007 at 07:42
Yes, not really. Max. some old families or genses of hunnic people or hunnic allies survived until the hungarian rule in the North-black Sea region.
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Posts: 8595 		  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2007 at 11:55
Originally posted by minchickie

Golden says they spoke Turkish.

There is no proof of their language at all let alone proof of who they really were. Fact is when Magyars (hungarians) came into europe follwing the Huns they brought with them a strange language unrelated to anything  else known and names like Atilla while Turks did not have this name, Also Ottomans referred to Magyars as HUNgarians. Huns were a Eurasian people but that does not mean they were Turks at all just alot of Turks like to claim this but nothing can be 100% proved because there was no written language left from Huns or any other evidence to say who they are related to. Attila is the number one boys/mens name in Hungary since they came into Europe in 890.
 
The name Ata (Atta) is widely used in Turkish. It means father. One possiblity for his name came from the Goths, whom the Huns had much contact with. They could have given Atta the diminutive suffix "ila" which means "little father". That would make both the names Ata and Attila to mean 'Father'. Another possibility is that the name of Etil had phoenetically evolved into Attila.
 
The Magyars did not directly follow the Huns footsteps into the modern day Pannonian plain. A period of a few hundred years had lapsed by then. After the Huns the previous land owners were the Ostrogoths, Lombards, Gepids, Slavs, Avars, and Slavs again.
 
As another member already mentioned, the Turks had known the Magyars as Macars. Not Hungarians. The Onogurs (ten arrows) were a known people at an earlier date though. They were a Bulgar (turk) alliance in the seventh century. The letter 'H' is a later addition to word Hungary. Similarities abound. Ungar and Onogur. However various theories abound about the Magyars and Hungarians too. http://hungarianhistory.freeservers.com/magyars.html
 
The popularity of a name is not indicative of its origins. Many names are adapted into various languages and cultures.
 
The Hunni (Xiong-nu, Tabgatch, and Hsien-pi aka Xianbei) or Kun in Turkish were well established in Mongolia and had correspondence with the Chinese, eventually Indians, Persians then Alans and Goths. When they reached the Hungarian basin they had a cosmopolitan group of followers. The 'Huns' did borrow terms from each of the peoples they had contact with. But it definately was not Hungarian since Hungarian was not established within the innner circle then. The Huns originally spoke what they had carried with them from present day Mongolia, and Turkestan (Central Asia).
 
The language of the Xiong-nu is hard to figure do to a lack of current evidence. However, one can infer from the example below. The Buddhist monk Fotudeng sent this message to a Xiong-nu king:
 
"syog tieg t'lei lied kang b'uok kuk g'iw t'uk tang." Chinese characters latinized
 
"sug tagti idqang, boqughigh tutqang" Xiong-nu translation.
 
"your army send-out, warlord hold" English translation.
 
 
 
 


Edited by Seko - 12-Jul-2007 at 12:35
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Posts: 384 		  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2007 at 03:00
On ok is ten arrows.  it was (or were some) tribe(s) in the west turc empire. Onogurs means simply ten ogurs.

Edited by Tar Szernd - 13-Jul-2007 at 03:00
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Posts: 8595 		  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2007 at 08:34
Yes and no.
 
Take a look:
 

Onogurs

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The Onogurs (also known as Onogundurs or Utigurs) were a horde of equestrian nomads better known as the Bulgars that wandered the Eurasian plains during the early Middle Ages. They lived in North Caucasian steppe east of Don River (Russia). It is presently believed that the origin of the name "Hungary" does not come from the Central Asian nomadic invaders called the Huns, but rather originated from a later, seventh century Bulgar alliance called On-Ogour, which in Old Turkish meant "(the) Ten Arrows"[1][2].

The word On means Ten, and Ok means Arrow in modern Turkish. On Oklar (Ten Arrows) is the modern Turkish plural form.
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Posts: 384 		  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2007 at 12:25
Ok, maybe this is true, but f.e.  the words "also known as Onogundurs and Utigurs" ... 600 years of history of minimum six different tribes (and tribe-unions) in a short and not very accurate sentence.   Really Wiki-like.
 
(hungarian comes surely from Onogur, the "h" was a creation from the west)


Edited by Tar Szernd - 14-Jul-2007 at 12:25
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jul-2007 at 19:41
Since there are not more registres than a handful of names, I think that affirming that Hunnic language was Turkish, Mongol, Magyar etc. is just speculation and (a bit) of politics.
 
It seems clear that Huns were associated to some other peoples, so one traveller may hear Magyar language among Huns and conclude that Hungarian was Hun, but some other may hear Cuman, or Slavic or Germanic and arrive to other conclusions apart from Hungarians.
 
Personally, I don't know which language Attila spoke, but I think that, at least, some Magyar and Turkish tribes were among Attila's people...why not?


Edited by Carles - 14-Jul-2007 at 19:43
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Posts: 8595 		  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jul-2007 at 20:25

Taking into equation the time frame of the Huns we would need to eliminate a few ethnic languages in your assumption Carles. Cuman and Hungarian were not known under those names at that time. Those languages would fall under speakers of Finno-Ugric and Turkic. Thats about as specific as can be without tracing the Huns to their original homelands. The Huns did incorporate diverse tribes yet they would not lose their own language during the advent of Attila.

Magyars have been east of the Urals prior to the name Hungarian. However, how deep their involvement with the Huns is beyond me. 


Edited by Seko - 15-Jul-2007 at 21:09
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jul-2007 at 19:28

Yes, you are right. I was talking with "modern" nations names just to illustrate.Thumbs%20Up
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Posts: 28 		  Quote The_Turks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2007 at 05:25
European Huns were a federation of Turks, Mongols, Slavs, Germans... etc. However, rulers of Huns were definetly Altaic but nobody can say Huns were Turks or Huns were Mongols...
 
We can only say Khans of Huns were ALTAIC.
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Posts: 1042 		  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2007 at 06:01
Originally posted by The_Turks

European Huns were a federation of Turks, Mongols, Slavs, Germans... etc. However, rulers of Huns were definetly Altaic but nobody can say Huns were Turks or Huns were Mongols...
 
We can only say Khans of Huns were ALTAIC.
 
The Huns were simply an EMPIRE. So ofcourse there would be populations of different ethnic groups living beneath the Hun "umbrella" in Europe.
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