Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Creation of Israel.
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 45678 10>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Leonidas View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Creation of Israel.
    Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 13:43
Originally posted by Hebrewtext

Originally posted by Leonidas

However the Samaritans never fully died out and they, AFAIK have Pre Babylonian  traits, their alphabet for instance. I brought them up with Mr HebrewText, got no answer, a while ago. There very existence muddles up the Jewish claims. What is a true Jew if you have two distinct living types that claim they follow the true Mosaic law? Unfortunately they are almost a gone now
 
the Samaritans counts today some 600 individuals , they live in Israel fully integrated into the Israeli society  ,and by hige rates of marriage to other Jews in Israel ,are vanishing nowdays.
I know they are small, but AFAIK growing not failing. The point of that conversationwas that the Hebrews of today are not the only people that can claim what they claim.
Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 07-Aug-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1810 		  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 14:25
Hello to you all
 
First, the Samaritans live in the west bank, Nablus to be more exact, and the only connection to Israeli most of them have is citizenship which they accept as a necessity.
 
Second, there were many greeks living in Palestine at the time of the Romans and before. Several Palestinian cities like Ludd and Caesaria Maritima were exclusively greek. Other nationalities also lived beside those two including original Aramaen and phoenician peoples who continued to worship their old religions.
 
Al-Jassas
Back to Top
Hebrewtext View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 24-Jan-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 88 		  Quote Hebrewtext Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 15:37
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Hello to you all
 
First, the Samaritans live in the west bank, Nablus to be more exact, and the only connection to Israeli most of them have is citizenship which they accept as a necessity.
 
Second, there were many greeks living in Palestine at the time of the Romans and before. Several Palestinian cities like Ludd and Caesaria Maritima were exclusively greek. Other nationalities also lived beside those two including original Aramaen and phoenician peoples who continued to worship their old religions.
 
Al-Jassas
 
why don't you google things you think,  before you post them? as I do .
 
the Samaritans live in two communities, one in Tel Aviv suburb (where i grew up and had known some of them) the rest near Shchem /Nablus (hystoricly/politicly Israel).
anyhow they are kind of Jews with Israeli citizsenhip by will,  easily maried with Jews but need to convert to Islam .
 
also the Hebrews/Jewish  became "Greeks" and "Roman" under their rule,and adapted some of the culture called Hellenisation ( cloths, language). aside if there were Europeans it means they are  not locals 
but foreign occupiers in which the Jews revolt again and again.
as the case of Caesaria Maritima  a Jewish city ,Helenistic by style built by king Herod the Hebrew.
 
the Pheonican were extinct the time of Jesus from the levant, only continue for another century  in some far colonies as Carthage (means a new city in Hebrew ,the sister lang. of Pheonician).
 


Edited by Hebrewtext - 17-Jan-2009 at 15:57
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 17:02
Originally posted by Leonidas


Hebrewtext even if you can prove continuous presence, so what? The Palestinians are the indigenous group with the historical and present majority. The last Palistinian I talked to had just a long family history, you see Arabs remember the geanology like no other, he went back further than i could with my own in Greece, because they keep/remember their own records.

That is a good point, and yes the Palestinians do have a presence in the area for as long, mainly because they are the product of the peoples that have lived there continuously. Language, religion, and culture can change drastically in a population, but that does not mean that there is a genetic nor familial break with the pre-Islamic, or even pre-Christian peoples in the region. Greece has had numerous populations(from Slavs that moved in and stayed to Anatolian populations that were moved through population shifts by the E. Roman Empire up the middle ages) for example that were over time integrated into Greek society. Does that make Greece less "Greek?" No, obviously not would be the answer to most people with a rational brain. Same in this scenario. Another example the Gauls - or Celts, they compose the most of modern France's genetic pool out of the three contemporary population movements. The Romans have a cultural impact, and have had one there for quite a while, but that didn't make the French any less the descendants of Gauls. Vercenigotrix may have been captured and publicly shamed as a symbol of Roman dominance, but that doesn't mean that these people overnight or over generations changed their family lines. Family lines change regardless of cultural-religious changes in a region. It is not like someone kicked out every single person living in Palestine/Judea at the moment and had Scotty and the Enterprise beam up a "bunch of Arabs" to replace them. To think that is absolutely ludicrous and against common wisdom or sense.




Greeks have had a presence for as long in many other parts, should we now cliam Calabria? Sledge hammer our way back to Napoli?


...Clap...so humbleEmbarrassed Leonidas you should've mentioned half of Sicily as well as half of the French/Italian Southern Gaul coast. Star

Then of course the USS Enterprise will beam back Augustus Caesar who will take back all of the Roman possessions up to 100AD. Big smile

Once again, good analogy Leonidas Thumbs Up








Edited by es_bih - 17-Jan-2009 at 17:05
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 17:08
Originally posted by Hebrewtext

Originally posted by azimuth

I admire how hard Zionist are working in rewriting history, this "Israel" creation has very little to do with " its our homeland, we used to live here for 5000 years and the most funny one " we have the right to exist", they think God gave this land to the jews, yea jews not neccessary Hebrews, so if a Million chinese converted to judaisim truely  then they have the Right to exisit as citizens of Israel. and then some zionist will come up explaining how these chinese are actully sons of a jewish familly immigrated to china long long time ago and they are jews . lol

so the manipulated statics and made up history (cutting some parts and pasting new ones)are just a zionist strategy to get what they want regardless of the way to get it.
 
Big smile
 
 
rubbish
 
bow down infront of the oldest preserved civilization on planet earth and the most influantial on the basics of other ones.


You are quite full of yourself Sir. Bowing
Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 07-Aug-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1810 		  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 18:35
Hello Hebrew
 
My knowledge about Samaritans come from natives of the city of Nablus as well as other different sources and all of them say that most samaritans are in Nablus but you maybe right since you live there.
 
As for Roman Palestine, you should understand this, I never denied jews were the majority or claimed they didn't exist as some insane people do, I said they were not the only ones. The primary sources (Pliny for example) that describe Palestine differentiate between jews and Greeks. Many jews were already Helenized by Roman times but they were still jews but the Greeks who lived in Palestine at that time were not jews, they were either real greeks, Hellenized jews who abandoned Judaism or Hellenized phoenicians and other Semitic peoples who lived in that area. After the first war with the Romans the overwhelming majority of jews left Palestine and settled elsewhere. The remaining either converted to Christianity and then a majority of them converted to Islam at a later time, remained jews and then assimilated with the mainstream muslims population or simply became extinct from the wars that plagued Palestine since the 1000s.
 
Al-Jassas
Back to Top
Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
Administrator
Administrator
Avatar
King of Kings

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 19:24

Hebrewtext, some people don't know the meaning of the historical identity of a land, so they can go and live everywhere, their homeland is just somewhere that they live or some of their ancestors lived.

One the oldest Persian cities is Parsumash in the Khuzistan province of Iran, all historical sources and archaeological findings show that it was a pure Persian city, from more than 1400 years ago Arabs live in this region, but it can never change the fact that this is the land of Persians, just as Arabia is the land of Arabs.
Back to Top
ArmenianSurvival View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460 		  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2009 at 22:08

Hebrewtext,

What constitutes an Israeli as part of a 'nation' in pre-1948?

 

Someone who practices Judaism? Well, around 80% of Israelis don't practice it, even today under the "Jewish state".

 

Someone who speaks Hebrew? The vast majority of Israelis only learned how to speak it in the decades after Israel declared independence. And even until today, Jews from different parts of the world have their own linguistic enclaves in Israel where they speak Hungarian, Russian, German, etc.

 

Someone belonging to a specific gene pool? Palestinians have the advantage here. They remained in the area for thousands of years. Jews went to the four corners of the world, mixed with local populations and converted many people who had nothing to do with their "genes". As a result most Israelis today are Slavs/Europeans and not Semites (Zionists even admit this in their literature).

 

Someone who has a shared history with other Jews? Again, there is no solid argument for this. Jews in the Ukraine have no idea about Jews in India, who have no idea about Jews in Africa, who have no idea about Jews in China, and on and on it goes.... Jews have no shared history outside of specific localities. That is the simple truth.

 

A yearning to return to Palestine? This is the most bankrupt of all excuses. There were very few times in history where Jews were barred from going to Palestine. Hellenistic times, Ottoman times, centuries upon centuries where there was nothing stopping Jews from returning to Palestine, but somehow they only had about 1% of world Jewry living there until the 1920s (your population chart is completely wrong). Most Jews preferred to live in Constantinople, Venice or Alexandria. Case in point: Look at Ottoman times when Palestine was part of the empire for centuries--- the vast majority of the Ottoman Jewish population lived outside of Palestine at a time when moving there was as easy as it gets.

 

No shared religion, no shared language, no shared history, no shared territory, very different genes (this is not a criteria but you brought it up so I have to address it). So what is left? Architecture? If you live in Israel you know that it resembles Frankfurt or Bucharest, and there is no "Jewish architecture". Cuisine? Again, nothing significant. So how on earth were Israelis a "nation" in pre-1948 when there was no single underlying connection between them?

 

Note: I am NOT trying to say Jews don't have an identity--- Real Jews practice Judaism and speak Hebrew regardless of where they live. My only point is that Israelis have no underlying connection as a nationality, especially pre-1948. Theres a big difference here.
 
 
 
Originally posted by hebrewtext

already in 1920 some 30% of the pop. within the 1948 borders were Jews many lived there for centuries.
 
already in 1945 more than 50 % of the pop. within the 1948 borders were Jews.
 
One can easily disprove these population claims using Zionist literature. Many of the most renown Zionists wrote lots of papers about how it would be remotely possible to convert the Arab majority in Palestine into a Jewish majority, and how on earth they could convince world Jewry to move to Palestine in order to fulfill this objective. Do you really want me to expose these lies about the Jewish population by quoting Zionists who were writing about the population disparity in Palestine? You know what, thats exactly what I'll do. I'll post it here in the next few days.
Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance

Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։
Back to Top
Leonidas View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 03:50
Originally posted by Hebrewtext

why don't you google things you think,  before you post them? as I do .
 
the Samaritans live in two communities, one in Tel Aviv suburb (where i grew up and had known some of them) the rest near Shchem /Nablus (hystoricly/politicly Israel).
anyhow they are kind of Jews with Israeli citizsenhip by will,  easily maried with Jews but need to convert to Islam .
No they are not simply 'a kind of jew'. They split from your form of Judaism in biblical times and claim to believe the true religion of Israel. Implying Rabbinical Judaism is not and that they are the Israeli's.

What your saying is isreali/main stream  Jewish concepts on the Samaritans rather than Samaritan concepts of themselves.

lets read what they say...

The Samaritans today are the remaining remnants of the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel that still bear the flag of the ancient sanctuaries of Israel. Recently, Tests have proven that the
Samaritan-Israelites’ DNA are related to Jewish DNA. Written family accounts of Samaritan ancestry, dates back to beyond the entry into the land of Canaan. Deuteronomy 26:62  llustrates the size of Israel, “Ye shall be few in number.”

page 1

my bolding...

Today the Samaritan-Israelites are slowly increasing in number. Normally, the people only marry within the community but because of the number of the men are considerable more than the women; the males are taking Jewish brides. This is only because these ladies are from the ancestry of Israel. These ladies after a period of trial convert to the faith of the community. The Samaritans use the linage of the fathers (Patrilineal) while the Jews use the parentage of the mother (Matrilineal). The patrilineal lineage is attested to by the use of the Pentateuch, son of Abraham, son of Isaac, etc.

The future of the Samaritan-Israelites has hope. Living today between the State of Israel and the Palestinian State, the Samaritans remain neutral. Yet their great hope for tomorrow is peace. A petition has been made to both states, the United States, Great Britain and the United Nations for establishing Mount Gerizim as a neutral zone of peace. Contacts with both Israel and the Palestinian authority have been a necessary element for the communities’ need of the Samaritan Israelites survival. Assaults from both Jews and Muslims have not discouraged their objective of a peaceful land for the growing Samaritan-Israelite body.
page 8
source PDF

from
http://www.thesamaritanupdate.com

another good source
www.livius.org/saa-san/samaria/samaritans.htm


Edited by Leonidas - 18-Jan-2009 at 03:53
Back to Top
Hebrewtext View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 24-Jan-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 88 		  Quote Hebrewtext Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 10:16
the Samaritan community of Nablus was evicted recently to a settelment near mt. Grizim and are under the protection of the Israeli army ,like other Jewish settelments.
when a Palestinian state would erect and all (or most) settelments will dismental ,probably they also will join the larger community near Tel Aviv .
 
what assaults from Jews ? maybe 2500 years ago?


Edited by Hebrewtext - 18-Jan-2009 at 10:18
Back to Top
Leonidas View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 12:13
maybe you should ask them, not just rely on self serving beliefs of your new nation state for making assumptions. First of all your mistaken they are a part of both sides, and they are not another 'Jewish' settlement. They are not going to fit in to your neat little box's, being Israeli citizens and holding positions in the Palestinian legislature.

I did i quick search, it took me one or so quick minutes to find examples. assuming myself, these Israeli citizens aren't just making stuff up.

this makes a good example of tacking ot from both sides.

Perhaps nothing as sadly illustrates just how caught in the middle the Samaritans are as the story of 55-year-old Yousef Sabaka.

Late one evening in November 2001, Sabaka was returning home when Palestinians fired on his car, which had yellow Israeli license plates. Sabaka was wounded in the leg and sped along a road past a Jewish settlement to summon help.

Israeli soldiers manning a military outpost apparently thought he was the source of the gunfire, and they also fired, hitting the car, but causing no further injury. Sabaka still walks with a cane.

Last May, another Samaritan, a deaf and mentally ill man, who couldn't hear Israeli soldiers shouting warnings at him, was shot and wounded by the soldiers as he wandered near the Jewish settlement.

In Samri's long life, the identity problem has gotten worse. For three decades he was a high school teacher in Nablus, where Palestinians sometimes give him funny looks.

"Not all people are good," he explained. "They feel because our religion is very near to that of the Jews that we'll take sides with the Jews, though we've lived here for centuries."

link


The Evangelist Zionist cheerleaders from the USA should also see how they treat Christians...

my bolding

While today’s residents are predominantly Muslim, a significant Palestinian Christian minority remains, and an ancient Jewish community—the Samaritans—lives in the foothills of Mount Gerizim.

There is no conflict among these three religious groups, all sharing Palestinian identity. The problem is not religious belief—the three have lived side-by-side for centuries—but the imbalance of power between Israelis and Palestinians. Nablus is surrounded by Israeli settlements and army installations, whose residents’ attitude and wielding of power, not religion, contributes to the hell in which Palestinians live. On our tour of the city our Balata guides take us to the beautifully renovated Greek Orthodox church—built on what is believed to be the site of the ancient Jacob’s Well. The guardian points to a painted icon of a former priest, hacked to death with an axe inside the church sanctuary by Jewish settlers in 1979. “Later on they came back for more,” he says, pointing to a shattered step marking the spot where settlers threw a bomb into the same sanctuary, almost killing a nun on the site

link

the danger it seems is not your mythical terrorist, but the IDF and those illegal settlements.


Edited by Leonidas - 18-Jan-2009 at 12:15
Back to Top
Hebrewtext View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 24-Jan-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 88 		  Quote Hebrewtext Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 13:44
come on.....
 
you wan't to hear how many Jewish settelers got shot by IDF by mistake ?
you wan't to hear how many IDF personal got shot by friendly fire ?
 
in such complicated and violante surrounding mistakes happen.
 
Back to Top
Vorian View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 06-Dec-2007
Location: Greece/Hellas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 566 		  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 17:12
Originally posted by Hebrewtext

come on.....
 
you wan't to hear how many Jewish settelers got shot by IDF by mistake ?
you wan't to hear how many IDF personal got shot by friendly fire ?
 
in such complicated and violante surrounding mistakes happen.
 


Yeah of course it's easy to kill a priest with an axe by mistake, it happens to me all the time


Edited by Vorian - 18-Jan-2009 at 17:13
Back to Top
Al Jassas View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar

Joined: 07-Aug-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1810 		  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2009 at 20:06
The difference between IDF "mistakes" and the mistakes of other armies, most armies, is those armies at least investigate and give an apology or even send people to trial and then to prison, tell me Hebrew, when was the last time there was a trial for any of the IDF member? Remember Rachel Corrie who was bulldozed in front of journalists from all over the world?
 
Al-Jassas
Back to Top
Super Goat (^_^) View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 22-Oct-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 180 		  Quote Super Goat (^_^) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2009 at 02:27
when a Palestinian state would erect and all (or most) settelments will dismental ,probably they also will join the larger community near Tel Aviv .
 


Why are they building new ones and increasingly expanding existing ones?
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2009 at 03:01
Yeah of course it's easy to kill a priest with an axe by mistake, it happens to me all the time
Back to Top
Leonidas View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2009 at 10:24
Originally posted by Hebrewtext

come on.....
 
you wan't to hear how many Jewish settelers got shot by IDF by mistake ?
you wan't to hear how many IDF personal got shot by friendly fire ?
 
in such complicated and violante surrounding mistakes happen.
 
with a population of hundreds every life is that much more crucial for them, times out that death by a multiple of the Israeli population to see the effect. But the point was;
  • Samaritans are not simply a type of Jew
  • ..are in danger of IDF-Settlement activity
  • don't want to take sides
  • can live amongst Palestinians in peace
  • ...and again while they exist; they render Zionist claims to the area, a non-unique - special historical right, or without precedence.
the other story was to remind the readers that Palestinian society was one where all religions had lived together. Christians have also been victims to Israel aggression, like the samaritans, purely because they live on the wrong side of the settlement wall.

Back to Top
Hebrewtext View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 24-Jan-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 88 		  Quote Hebrewtext Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2009 at 11:18
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Yeah of course it's easy to kill a priest with an axe by mistake, it happens to me all the time


 
thats one case from 1979 done by a lunatic, and even if there were more cases like that.
 
there are thousends of antisemitic events and attacks against Jews each year around the globe.
Back to Top
Vorian View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 06-Dec-2007
Location: Greece/Hellas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 566 		  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2009 at 13:44

Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2009 at 15:05
Originally posted by Hebrewtext

 
the land is called Israel for the past 3500 years ,"Palestine" is a newer term.
The land was never ever called Israel by anyone. Part of it was for a short while. Even  in the Jewish scriptures it was not called Israel.
 
An alternative to Palestine might be Canaan, I'm not clear on that, but 'Palestine' has the advantage of actually referring to more or less the same area. Granted it's only 2,000 or so years old, but it is ar least accurate.
how can you call the 3000 years natives "palestinians" ,this is Inventing pseudo-historical theories and only recently.
Because they live in Palestine. Palestine is the English name for the area, has been so for at least as long as modern English has existed, and the language we're supposed to talk here is English.
 
individuals can't claim for the right of self determination, even after living there for centuries.
Of course they can. What they have to recognise though is the rule of law and the need for the majority to prevail, given certain constraints.
by this logic most of the planet should be  Jewish state.
Nonsense. Only in Israel do Jews have a majority of any area.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 45678 10>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.156 seconds.