Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Creation of Israel.

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 10>
Author
aslanlar View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 12-May-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 124
  Quote aslanlar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Creation of Israel.
    Posted: 10-Jul-2007 at 17:52
True, i agree to that. It's not like they are a 'nationality' or anything, it is just a religion.

Edited by aslanlar - 10-Jul-2007 at 17:55
"The league is alright when sparrows dispute but it can do little when eagles argue" -Mussolini
Back to Top
elenos View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-Jun-2007
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1457
  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2007 at 18:16
Er, it's a little more complicated than "just a religion" aslander. They Jews see themselves as "chosen by God", and as such are the "Divine Nation" Only they or their descendants can share the new world when God destroys this old one. "The bones of the just will rise from their grave to build a new world". They see themselves as the race of God and not merely a religion.
One wit of long ago said,

It's odd
that God
should choose
the Jews.

elenos
Back to Top
edgewaters View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Snake in the Grass-Banned

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2394
  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2007 at 16:35
They are as much a nationality as anyone else. They are an ethnic group; the fiction of race doesn't come into it.

Are the English a nationality? I would think most people would say "yes", but the English are a great mixture of different groups. What about Americans? Or even the Irish or Scots, who are also mixed peoples (chiefly Gaelic and Norse)?

Ethnogenesis has little to do with biology.
Back to Top
elenos View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 13-Jun-2007
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1457
  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2007 at 23:07
I agree edgewaters. Nobody is "born" a Jew, a Muslim or Christian. Whatever the religion should be up to the individual to choose of their own free will, but all over the world this is not being held to. What can you suggest doing about it? A modern person is allowed and even encouraged to be proud of who they are and what their heritage is, but there can be a dark side. Force and trickery is being used to keep the children in line so far as religion. They are not and probably never will be taught any other point of view.    
elenos
Back to Top
King John View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 01-Dec-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1366
  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2007 at 10:44
Originally posted by elenos

I agree edgewaters. Nobody is "born" a Jew, a Muslim or Christian. Whatever the religion should be up to the individual to choose of their own free will, but all over the world this is not being held to. What can you suggest doing about it? A modern person is allowed and even encouraged to be proud of who they are and what their heritage is, but there can be a dark side. Force and trickery is being used to keep the children in line so far as religion. They are not and probably never will be taught any other point of view.


I couldn't disagree more, elenos. In the matter of being born a Jew there is more to that than just being born into a religion. You are also being born into an ethnic group that happens to hold certain religious beliefs. For instance let's say I was alive during Hitler's reign in Germany and I was born a Jew (that is born of a Jewish mother and father) however I was not practicing the faith (both of which happen to be true) I would still be sent to a death camp merely because I had Jewish blood in me. With this example we can see that Jewishness transcends religion. Therefore one can be born Jewish.
Back to Top
Patch View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 19-Apr-2006
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 119
  Quote Patch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2007 at 17:40
Jews have a right of self determination just as British, Americans, Turks, Greeks, Irish and everyone else does.
 
Denying Jews the right to self determination is one of the definitions of antisemitism used by the EU.
 
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2007 at 04:20
Originally posted by erkut

Well there was a jewish state in Russia before 1948.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birobidzhan

A product of Russian anti-semitism of course. Sending people to Siberia is a age old Russian punishment.
Originally posted by maqsad

I would have put Israel in Malta. Hardly anyone else lives there and it would not have displaced any Arabs or enraged any Arab governments. The world, especially the mideast would have been a more peaceful place.

What about all the Maltese? Thats just as bad as Palestine.

Basically, the need of a Jewish state is only there because the Jews of Europe were completely fed up with the persecution they suffered there and wanted to leave. The Europeans were more than happy to see the back of them and decided to 'dump' them somewhere in a colony. Whether the Jews of Europe were dumped in Palestine, Angola, or the Kimberly is equally inhumane. You're still treating the local inhabitants as if they are non-existant, and the Jewish as if they are not welcome in Europe (which was true).
Having said that we know what happened when they went to palestine, Angola wouldn't be much different I think, if they went to the Kimberly however, the Kimberly Aboriginies would probably wouldn't exist anymore*.

The only just solution seems to be that the refugees from Europe are accepted by numerous countries from the rest of the world. Just like refugees are today. Hell, you could take all 5 million Israelis and settle them in the subcontinent and no-one would even notice - which I will point out is best for all sides - it allows the Jewish refugees to have a good life, and no-one looses their land.

Jews have a right of self determination just as British, Americans, Turks, Greeks, Irish and everyone else does.
 
Denying Jews the right to self determination is one of the definitions of antisemitism used by the EU.

You have to have a country before you can go for self-determination. Do you accept the Gypsies right to self-determination? Its a meaningless question, they need a country first, analgous to the Jews.

*But in the 1940s the English were still trying to commit genocide so they wouldn't have worried about that.
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2007 at 07:51
 
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim


*But in the 1940s the English were still trying to commit genocide so they wouldn't have worried about that.
 
I assume, from the context, you're referring to the treatment of aborigines in Australia?
 
Hardly fair to attribute that to the 'English', rather than the Autralians, who, though they were still at that time mainly British, included rather a lot of Welsh, Scots and Irish.
 
And the Australian subset of British were already self-governing anyway.
Back to Top
Patch View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 19-Apr-2006
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 119
  Quote Patch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2007 at 11:42
'You have to have a country before you can go for self-determination. Do you accept the Gypsies right to self-determination? Its a meaningless question, they need a country first, analgous to the Jews.'
 
Do you thus think Pakistan should be ruled from India?
 
The Pakistanis didn't have a country until 1947, about the same time as Israel became a country and for similar reasons.
 
There was a large Jewish community in what is now Israel as there was a large Muslim community in what is now Pakistan.  The borders were set along ethnic lines in both Israel and Pakistan.  The right of both Jews and Pakistanis to a state was recognised.
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2007 at 20:57
Pakistan has nothing to do with the situation. Your saying that the scotts demanding self-determination is the same as all the Gypsies of Europe migrating to England and then demanding self-determination on English soil (at the expense of the English inhabitants who wouldn't be allowed to live there anymore). All I am saying is self-determination for a stateless people is meaningless. For that matter, the two state solution is practically meaningless too, as modern palestinians are also stateless.

Originally posted by gcle

Hardly fair to attribute that to the 'English', rather than the Autralians, who, though they were still at that time mainly British, included rather a lot of Welsh, Scots and Irish.
 
And the Australian subset of British were already self-governing anyway.

Yes your right of course.
Back to Top
edgewaters View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Snake in the Grass-Banned

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2394
  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2007 at 23:29
Originally posted by Patch

Jews have a right of self determination just as British, Americans, Turks, Greeks, Irishand everyone else does.

Denying Jews the right to self determination is one of the definitions of antisemitism used by the EU.



Yes I agree that they are as much a nationality or ethnicity as anyone else.

But I'm a little divided on self-determination, at least, historically. I've always imagined that self-determination requires a region with a majority of the ethnicity in question. Immigrating to a region over the protests of the inhabitants is colonization, and not in keeping with the spirit of self-determination.

However, this is academic. There are now large swaths of Israel with Jewish majorities, and a generation that has been born on Jewish soil and has no home in any other state.
Back to Top
maqsad View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 25-Aug-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 928
  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2007 at 23:49
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Originally posted by maqsad

I would have put Israel in Malta. Hardly anyone else lives there and it would not have displaced any Arabs or enraged any Arab governments. The world, especially the mideast would have been a more peaceful place.

What about all the Maltese? Thats just as bad as Palestine.

Basically, the need of a Jewish state is only there because the Jews of Europe were completely fed up with the persecution they suffered there and wanted to leave. The Europeans were more than happy to see the back of them and decided to 'dump' them somewhere in a colony. Whether the Jews of Europe were dumped in Palestine, Angola, or the Kimberly is equally inhumane. You're still treating the local inhabitants as if they are non-existant, and the Jewish as if they are not welcome in Europe (which was true).


I didn't know Malta was that overcrowded I just picked an Island near Europe where I thought they would fit in best. It could be Cyprus, Corsica, Sicily or one of the greek islands.  Israel itself is just a sliver of land and they mainly survive there due to contributions from rich zionists as well as from trade with Europe mainly via sea lanes. Not like Israel itself has any extensive natural resources. Having an island instead of a land smack in the middle of Arabia they wouldn't have any land conflicts with anyone else and thus have no problems nor create any.
Back to Top
Patch View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 19-Apr-2006
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 119
  Quote Patch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 01:45
The parts of what is now Israel that were given to the Jews in the 1948 plan did have Jewish majorities.  The Arabs did not accept the peace plan and chose war which they lost - the result was today's Israel.  Israel is as legimate state as any and its population is now overwhelmingly Jewsish (c75%).
 
Another partial paralel is Kosovo, originally it had a predominately Serb population but over time the Serbs left and the Albanians took their place so now it is overwhelmingly Albanian and thus is now practically an independant Albanian dominated state.
 
 
Back to Top
erkut View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
Persona non Grata

Joined: 18-Feb-2006
Location: T.R.N.C.
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 965
  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 05:01
Originally posted by Patch

 
The parts of what is now Israel that were given to the Jews in the 1948 plan did have Jewish majorities.  The Arabs did not accept the peace plan and chose war which they lost - the result was today's Israel.  Israel is as legimate state as any and its population is now overwhelmingly Jewsish (c75%).
 
 
Yeap i agree with Patch, when GB had left the Israel/Palastine both communuty had right to creat their own states.
 
But as Pekau said  ''This has nothing to do with antisemtism or any other negative attitude towards current Israel. It's just another typical "What if" question''.


Edited by erkut - 23-Jul-2007 at 05:03
Back to Top
edgewaters View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Snake in the Grass-Banned

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2394
  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 05:42
Originally posted by Patch

The parts of what is now Israel that were given to the Jews in the 1948 plan did have Jewish majorities.


Yeah, but only because they migrated there to achieve those minorities. That's not self-determination, that's colonization, any way you want to cut it.

The only thing I can accept about it is that it's all in the past. Since then, so many Jews have been born on that soil without having any choice in the matter that at this point you've got to say that if those people didn't have a state they'd deserve one.

The history behind its foundation is a little checkered, but ... that's water under the bridge, really.
Back to Top
Serge L View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Italy
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 485
  Quote Serge L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 18:43
What do you think  of the proposal (it's not mine, I think it was froma some Saudi King) to cut away a piece of Germany and give it to the Jews?
Certainly, that could have been the morally best, since Germans were the major culprit of the Jew situation.

I guess Germans would have accepted that and still would accept (did you ever been in Germany? they still bear a noticeable sense of fault for WWII and the rest)

Besides many German people were forcefully relocated to cede land to Stalin (and Poland was literally shifted towards West!), and nobody in Germany is even remotely thinking to complain about that, so I could expect there would be no revolt in an Israel state in the middle of Europe.

What part of Germany? that could be more problematic. I would lean towards some part of East Germany, since that would have be closest to the original residences of most of them. However that would have probably meant to end inside Soviet influence, so better somewhere else. Maybe a strip at the border with France? or a "pillow" state between East and West Germany? this latter could have been useful during the cold war, but a problem at the time of German re-unification.


Back to Top
edgewaters View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Snake in the Grass-Banned

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2394
  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 18:56
Originally posted by Serge L

What do you think of the proposal (it's not mine, I think it was froma some Saudi King) to cut away a piece of Germany and give it to the Jews?Certainly, that could have been the morally best, since Germans were the major culprit of the Jew situation.I guess Germans would have accepted that and still would accept (did you ever been in Germany? they still bear a noticeable sense of fault for WWII and the rest)Besides many German people were forcefully relocated to cede land to Stalin (and Poland was literally shifted towards West!), and nobody in Germany is even remotely thinking to complain about that, so I could expect there would be no revolt in an Israel state in the middle of Europe.What part of Germany? that could be more problematic. I would lean towards some part of East Germany, since that would have be closest to the original residences of most of them. However that would have probably meant to end inside Soviet influence, so better somewhere else. Maybe a strip at the border with France? or a "pillow" state between East and West Germany? this latter could have been useful during the cold war, but a problem at the time of German re-unification.


Actually there were proposals that were entirely amenable to the Jews in the post-war period that suggested Western Canada as a potential location. It was sparsely populated, had great resources, and it was a good spot to do trade from.

But Canada objected vociferously. Which was entirely unfortunate in hindsight - it would have been so simple, so easy.

There was a similar Jewish-led intiative to establish a state in Australia, by purchasing land in the Kimberley region (called the Kimberley Plan). The Australians, too, objected, stating that they would not accept "alien settlement", despite the fact that the landowners, the Durack family, strongly supported the idea. But newspapers of the period are rife with scaremongering about Jews "swarming" into the cities "even if they have to burrow under wire netting."

I can only imagine that there would be even more vociferous objection from anywhere in western Germany. Eastern Germany - well they'd taken so many lumps that they weren't going to put up a fight about another, but, that would put the new state in the Soviet bloc, which would probably be unacceptable to Jews of the West, especially after the war and their recent brush with European totalitarianism.

And actually, there was a Jewish state in Russia already; the Jewish Autonomous Oblast, which still exists today. However there aren't many Jews there; they were forced to flee during Stalin's persecutions, which saw the Jewish leadership disappeared and heritage objects held in the oblast's libraries burned in an effort to stamp out Judaism.

Edited by edgewaters - 23-Jul-2007 at 19:22
Back to Top
Hebrewtext View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 24-Jan-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 88
  Quote Hebrewtext Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2008 at 21:29
A- Israel is the oldest nation on planet earth ( language,traditition,religion).      
where  Hebrews/Jews live non stop for the past 4000 years.
 
B- Israel was created by the Jews (amovment called Zionism) for self determination since the 19th cen. and not "given" nor created by the British after WW2.
 
C-prior to WW2 Israel was organised as autonomous future state by the Jews. with organisations,institutions facilities ,and cities were already built like Tel Aviv etc.
 
D- the Palestinians never formed an ethnic national  entity nor  astate.
 
E- the Arab states are artificial  creation of the west ,by giving lands to local "kings and Sheiks" for oil and support.  "states" with no historical ethnical basic. Jordan Syria Lebanon Iraq the Gulf etc.
Back to Top
Peteratwar View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 17-Apr-2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 591
  Quote Peteratwar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 12:27
The fact that the current arab nations are as artificial in their boundaries as anywhere else in the Middle East appears to be conveniently forgotten.
 
They were all part of the Ottoman Empire
Back to Top
Aster Thrax Eupator View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended

Suspended

Joined: 18-Jul-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1929
  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2008 at 12:39
Ho hum - blacklisted topic moved to the minefield
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 10>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.156 seconds.