Creation of Israel.

First i would like to remind words of pekau;

Originally posted by Serge L Canada and Australia would have been better (or less bad) than Palestine just because their lands are less densely populated, so you would have needed to evict less people to make space for Jews. However, every people would object what  present time Palestinians do: "Jews could have been persecuted and deserve a state of their own and compensations, yet this was not our fault, so why should we be penalized in the process?" This is the core of the problem.

A- Israel is the oldest nation on planet earth ( language,traditition,religion).       where  Hebrews/Jews live non stop for the past 4000 years.   B- Israel was created by the Jews (amovment called Zionism) for self determination since the 19th cen. and not "given" nor created by the British after WW2.   C-prior to WW2 Israel was organised as autonomous future state by the Jews. with organisations,institutions facilities ,and cities were already built like Tel Aviv etc.   D- the Palestinians never formed an ethnic national  entity nor  astate.   E- the Arab states are artificial  creation of the west ,by giving lands to local "kings and Sheiks" for oil and support.  "states" with no historical ethnical basic. Jordan Syria Lebanon Iraq the Gulf etc.

And the sky is purple....

Originally posted by Super Goat (^_^) A- Israel is the oldest nation on planet earth ( language,traditition,religion).       where  Hebrews/Jews live non stop for the past 4000 years.   B- Israel was created by the Jews (amovment called Zionism) for self determination since the 19th cen. and not "given" nor created by the British after WW2.   C-prior to WW2 Israel was organised as autonomous future state by the Jews. with organisations,institutions facilities ,and cities were already built like Tel Aviv etc.   D- the Palestinians never formed an ethnic national  entity nor  astate.   E- the Arab states are artificial  creation of the west ,by giving lands to local "kings and Sheiks" for oil and support.  "states" with no historical ethnical basic. Jordan Syria Lebanon Iraq the Gulf etc. And the sky is purple....

"Self Determination", if not a recent invention, has been promoted in recent times as a high goal for the good of all man-kind. In reality it is a racist, bigoted and xenophobic concept that encourages false divisions, ideological conflict and persecution.

The "Jewish People" do not need a homeland. I can guarantee that if someone announced today that Europe would now be for "white people only" there would be a huge international out-cry. Just because a religious or ethnic group exists does NOT mean that it requires self-governance.

People like to argue that the Jewish people have been persecuted throughout history. This is a fallacy. Examples that are brought up include the following: Egypt; Alexandria; Rome; Russia and, of course, the Holocaust.

It is indeed true, if you believe religious texts, that the ancient Israelites were enslaved by Egypt. They would hardly have been the only ones though. Slaves were routinely traded in Africa for millenia, often sourced from the same villages or communities over and over again.

When considering Roman administered Judea and later Alexandria you could only ever argue that they brought it upon themselves. In the case of Rome they were indeed suffering some minor religious persecution under the Empire, but their violent rebellion invited the Romans to act as they did. Many of the Judeans could only have been described, in the modern vernacular, as terrorists. Similarly in Alexandria the Jewish instigated massive gang-violence and ethnic conflict that damaged the city severely.

In modern times the persecution is much less justified. Persecution and death at the hands of Nazi Germany and Communist Russia were inexcusable. In this case it was probably the self-imposed cultural isolation (and elitism) as well as the relative wealth of many Jewish communities that made them easier targets. While The Holocaust was truly terrible, the Jewish deaths actually comprised a relatively small amount when compared to the number of Slavic deaths during the war.

Besides all of this, it comes down to the injustice inflicted upon the Palestinians. The Palestinians, pre-existing nation or not, helped win World War 2 and end the Holocaust with the promise they would be allowed to govern themselves afterward. They even opened their doors to a number of Jewish immigrants. The Jewish communities literally flooded the country though, ignoring the limits in place and brutally betraying the generosity of the Palestinian people. They then resorted to terrorism and violence in order to take control of the country based on the fact that they lived there almost 2 millennia ago, and upon a religious and culturally elitist opinion that they held some right over the land.

The international community SHOULD have stopped it there. Regrettably they were still feeling guilty for not intervening in the holocaust sooner and because none of them would willingly open their doors to such a number of immigrants, persecuted or not, they let the Palestinian people suffer. Such is "self-determination".

Originally posted by Zaitsev The "Jewish People" do not need a homeland. I can guarantee that if someone announced today that Europe would now be for "white people only" there would be a huge international out-cry. Just because a religious or ethnic group exists does NOT mean that it requires self-governance.

^

I concur with CXI on that.

Originally posted by Zaitsev Besides all of this, it comes down to the injustice inflicted upon the Palestinians. The Palestinians, pre-existing nation or not, helped win World War 2 and end the Holocaust with the promise they would be allowed to govern themselves afterward. They even opened their doors to a number of Jewish immigrants. The Jewish communities literally flooded the country though, ignoring the limits in place and brutally betraying the generosity of the Palestinian people. They then resorted to terrorism and violence in order to take control of the country based on the fact that they lived there almost 2 millennia ago, and upon a religious and culturally elitist opinion that they held some right over the land.

Good analogy and summary. This indeed is the root of the problem, not to mention that these same people involved ended up living and having their children and grandchildren born in tents, and shelled out refugee camps. That is 60 years of living in a sub-standard sub-nomadic lifestyle that would not give much hope of resolve to anyone. The problem is that Israel plays the victim card a bit too often, it is not the sole ambasador nor protector of Jewish peoples - nor are the Jewish people to be viewed by the example that Israel sets out for itself.

Hello to you all

Hello Graham

Edited by Hebrewtext - 15-Jan-2009 at 22:53