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Creation of Israel.

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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Creation of Israel.
    Posted: 29-Jun-2007 at 15:19
I was just wondering... the establishment of Israel in Middle East clearly did not work out. What if you, as the representive of the victorious Allies, had the power to decide where Israel will be established? Where would you create and and why?
 
And according to your decision, how would it change the world we live in today? Towards better? Towards worse?
 
Just a note: This has nothing to do with antisemtism or any other negative attitude towards current Israel. It's just another typical "What if" question.
 
 
     
   
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  Quote zeno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2007 at 15:23
a very complicated re-drawing of borders i would think!
 
Jerusalem should probably become an independent city-state
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  Quote Frederick Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2007 at 15:45

After WWII there was a semi-secret talk between the Portuguese and British governments envisaging the creation of a new state of Israel in Angola. Tongue

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  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2007 at 18:38
The main problem was not the placement but rather the creation. Had "Israel" been placed in Europe, Africa, South America or Asia the world would still be experiencing issues with that state. The creation was symptomatic of Western European Imperialsim. The victorious powers in each of the world wars did not take into account the effects of placing rival ethnic groups together in one state: ie Hutus and Bantus (Rawanda). In a way this answers the question but for the most part this response merely dodges the issue inorder to say that the establishment of "Israel" in a different region/place would do nothing but move the conflict from the Middle East to some other location.     
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2007 at 22:52
In all honesty, given current events and the pretty obvious reasons why so many Arabs were angry at the creation of Israel, i'd probably opt for it not to be created at all.
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2007 at 23:34
Originally posted by Frederick Roger

After WWII there was a semi-secret talk between the Portuguese and British governments envisaging the creation of a new state of Israel in Angola. Tongue

 
Unbelievable!
 
I would give them passports to whichever country they wish to go to, though countries may set a limit so as to not find themselves swamped and overcome as per Palestine.
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  Quote Super Goat (^_^) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 02:33
They should've been returned to their countries in Europe, and compensated for the damages done to them.

I think giving them part of Angola would've been just as unfair as giving them palestine.
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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 07:22
Originally posted by pekau

I was just wondering... the establishment of Israel in Middle East clearly did not work out. What if you, as the representive of the victorious Allies, had the power to decide where Israel will be established? Where would you create and and why?
  
 
There cannot be such a what if...Zionism movement which had the most influential role in the taking of the establishment grant from Britain with Balfour Declaration, was always seeking, like every other Jewish who had worked towards an independent Israeli state, to establish a state on their very historical holy area..
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 09:37
Maybe the Greeks should get back all of Alexanders empires because they ruled once? Claiming an area becasue your people ruled it 2500 years ago is inane.
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  Quote ChickenShoes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 16:18

isn't israel where Judea used to be? if so, that is the right place is it not?

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 17:36
Originally posted by ChickenShoes

isn't israel where Judea used to be? if so, that is the right place is it not?

 
 
In ancient times, modern-day Israel Was split between the northern Kingdom of Israel and the southern Kingdom of Judah(Judea?)
 
Is that what you're refering to?
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  Quote aslanlar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 19:41

Why did they form Israel? Was it compensation after WW2? Who gave the Jewish people land? Was Palestine informed about this, or did they have a say in it?

Sorry, but as you can tell i'm uninformed about this topic and it's pretty interesting.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2007 at 21:18
Originally posted by aslanlar

Why did they form Israel? Was it compensation after WW2? Who gave the Jewish people land? Was Palestine informed about this, or did they have a say in it?

Sorry, but as you can tell i'm uninformed about this topic and it's pretty interesting.
 
Hey, man. We're all uninformed in lots of things. It's quite fineWink
 
Perhaps someone has a better answer than this, and if so please correct me.
 
Before WW2, in..1923 I believe? The Balfourt Document created by England stated that European Jews could now move to Palestine (which was a british territory) and as far as I know, the palestinians were not given the right to accept it or not. They had to suck up any inconvenience that was going to happen. I don't know exactly the reason for the document or the exact circumstances/suffering of the Arabs.
 
The White Papers before WW2 however stated that no more than 10,000 jews could enter Palestine a year or something. This was to appease the Arabs who were, obviously, just a little freaking out over the entire ordeal.
 
Consequently, after WW2 there was some real push to revive and officialize the creation of a Jewish homeland. And seeing as what happened to them, could you blame them? But Zionism was alive even before all of this, I think.
 
The problem with the entire thing was that the West did not so much as ask for the Arab's opinion and treated them as if they were worthless. I think we're feeling those repercussions nowadays.
 
 
Hope this helps. Honestly, i'm pretty interested in this question of yours myself because I think it might be essential in understanding the radical arabs of today and their reasons for doing what they do.


Edited by Derfasciti - 30-Jun-2007 at 21:26
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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2007 at 11:17
Originally posted by Sparten

Maybe the Greeks should get back all of Alexanders empires because they ruled once? Claiming an area becasue your people ruled it 2500 years ago is inane.
 
Yes, in fact it is not sane...
 
Ben Gurion's quotes also admit this fact :
 
We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population"
 
 
"Whomever approaches to Zionism in a moral way, is not a Zionist" 
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2007 at 05:54
Australia once offered the Jewish people the right to set up a national homeland in the Kimberly region of Western Australia. The offer was refused. 
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  Quote Peteratwar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2007 at 11:13
What would have happened if the Arab nations had agreed and worked towards making the whole idea work ?
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  Quote ChickenShoes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2007 at 11:37
Originally posted by Derfasciti

Originally posted by ChickenShoes

isn't israel where Judea used to be? if so, that is the right place is it not?

 
 
In ancient times, modern-day Israel Was split between the northern Kingdom of Israel and the southern Kingdom of Judah(Judea?)
 
Is that what you're refering to?
 
oh wow, i did not not know there was an ancient israel. I always thought it was just the modern day name of a jewish state, thanks!Smile


Edited by ChickenShoes - 02-Jul-2007 at 11:38
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 13:47
 
..Hello everyone..

 

.I will freely confess that my knowledge on this subject is found wanting, however, when I have given the matter some consideration, my personal sentiment often reflects a heightened level of sympathy for the post-WWII Jewish plight, but also a strong pro-Palestinian angle in the idea that the land does really belong to the Arabic peopleshaving done some albeit brief background reading on the topic, it appears from what I have read that this attitude was similarly maintained by the then British government.

 

..Some of this has been pointed out earlier, but, in 1917, the Balfour Declaration promised to facilitate the establishment in Palestine of a National Home for the Jewish people, however, it was also noted that this should not, in principle, prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities. Although this does beg the question, how on earth would this have not prejudiced the existing communities, which is in effect, I believe similar to the question Pekau originally askednevertheless, the Zionists saw this as a promise to establish a Jewish state, and the Arabs viewed the declaration as a British betrayal of their own rights.however, due mainly to the rise of the Third Reich, a steady influx of Jewish refugees from Europe entered Palestine, which provoked Arab aggression and was suppressed by the British authorities.the point has been made that by the time WWII had started, the British felt they could not elevate their sympathy towards the Jews above that of Arab friendship and the security of the Middle East.

 

..Derfasciti has already mentioned the British White Papers and it was this document produced in 1939 that restricted the right for Jews to purchase land and more importantly perhaps, promised eventual independence to Palestine under Arab majority rule. It appears then that a free-Jewish state was not exactly forthcoming, but increasing political pressure ensured that Britain gradually relaxed its grip on the situation. Most of this pressure was coming from the United States where in 1942; Jewish authorities adopted what became known as the Biltmore Programme. This policy placed the matter of Jewish immigration in Palestine into Jewish hands, alongside the establishment of a Jewish State once a Jewish majority had been created.  No regard was paid to the rights of the existing Arab majority. From this, it could be argued that the Palestinian problem was taken from British governmental hands.

 

..The plight of the Jews in WWII and increasing political and public support on both sides of the Atlantic meant Jewish energies in creating a nation state were growing in momentum. Despite frequent and often racist calls for Jews to be settled and Arabs to be moved out, it seems that the British governments policy was to reach an honourable compromise and maintain British influence in the middle east. Unfortunately, the United Nations idea of partitioning the Jews and Arabs understandably found no support from either side and was resisted by the British Government. The problem of creating a honourable compromise had now emerged into a difficulty that could not be reconciled between Jews and Arabs, which rather brings us back to modern day circumstances. Despite the ensuing conflict between the Arabs and Jews being blamed upon imperialistic misrule, it has been suggested that the aftermath was a result of an inappropriate sense of fair play on the part of a decolonising government...

 

Arguably, it could be said that simply no matter what the British government did, the Jews were intent on establishing their homeland and the Arabs were equally resilient in resisting the ideabut then again, whose to say what would have happened in the region if British interests had not been involved in the first place

 

..Given all the insurmountable problems, the will of both Arab and Jew resistance, the creation of a Jewish state practically anywhere else would have probably resulted in the same chaos experienced today. 

 

..all quotes and references taken from Alan Sked and Chris Cook. Post War Britain, A Political History, 1945-1992 Fourth Edition, Chapter 2 The Labour Government 1945-50 (London, 1979)

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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 15:55
Originally posted by Derfasciti

Before WW2, in..1923 I believe? The Balfourt Document created by England stated that European Jews could now move to Palestine (which was a british territory) and as far as I know, the palestinians were not given the right to accept it or not. They had to suck up any inconvenience that was going to happen. I don't know exactly the reason for the document or the exact circumstances/suffering of the Arabs.

The White Papers before WW2 however stated that no more than 10,000 jews could enter Palestine a year or something. This was to appease the Arabs who were, obviously, just a little freaking out over the entire ordeal.


That's not really why the Arabs were freaking out. Partially that's the way they saw it, but what really stuck in their craw was that, a year before the Balfour Declaration, there was the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence - which essentially promised the Arabs sovereign rule if they helped Britain out by uprising against the Ottomans, which they did.

They were really ticked later because the Sykes-Picot Agreement - a secret treaty between France, Russia, and Britain - was published by the Soviets. Britain had never intended sovereignty for the Arabs at all, but had all the while been planning to divide up the Middle East between itself, France, and Russia. After Russia had its revolution, Britain and France cut it out of the deal - so they published the secret treaty.

So, essentially, the Arabs volunteered themselves as cannon fodder for the British in WW1 - and then learned they'd been cheated and the British had been planning to cheat them all along. Israel, I guess, was just the final straw.
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 21:40
Like everybody else I have thought about this situation. The newspapers are full of it (literally). Like many I lean toward the Arab side in principle, but find their suicidal tactics to make their point as totally unacceptable. One thing is being confused with another and another and that makes a breeding ground for fanatics and hoodlums who get off on killing others.
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