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Baedal

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Gubook Janggoon View Drop Down
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Baedal
    Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 23:37
Yea...I thought that the North Korean history thing in the "ancient civ" forum kinda degenerated and would be better placed here...So keep on ranting Demon i am enthralled with your knowledge
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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 13:44

Behold!  The Top Secret Chinese file!

"In Manchuria, there are countless mysterious pyramids"

I'm not joking.  If you think I am a fuc*in liar, its because the Chinese government lied to you. 

There are countless pyramids lying in Manchuria.  Currently, about 100 of them are identified. 

An average height of 25~100m each, there are those larger than the biggest pyramids in Egypt- the Giza.

Creation time wins Egyptian ones by 2000 years. 

These pictures, showing some of these mysterious pyramids, were taken by a german archeologist named Housedolf:

 

To create this, in antigue technology, you require at least 1,000,000 men.

I repeat, the biggest ones outmatch Egyptian ones

The first one of these were discovered by a local american air pilot's survey, in 1945.

Before that, they were believed to be mountains

In 1963, Chinese Archeologists speculated these pyramids to be Quishihuang's tomb and decided to excavate them.

However, in 1973, after cabon dating these Pyramids, they figured out that these pyramids outdate Quishihuang's tombs by thousands of years.

(about 6000 years from today- Older than Hwanhe civilization)

Currently, these artefacts that can rewrite history are being kept in Pure secret by Chinese Government

Currently, and survey nor research are prohibited.

(The Chinese governent digged in in 1960~70s until "western barbarian", or Baedal's artefacts spurred out, in which they decided to stop it-Why?= Because they realized that Baedal>HwanHe)

Thereafter, Chinese government starts to make this radical theory in that Koguryo is Chinese

The previous German Housedolf and his companion Peter Crasha pretended on a trip, and with a friendly Chinese officer known to them for many years, managed to take secret photos ^^.

Even if the Chinese government stole the film and camera, luckily they sent the pictures to german as soon as they took them, and they managed to show the Western world about Manchurian Pyramids.

These pyramids are proves to change current historical knowledge

At first, the Chinese government condemned manchu and upper as barbarians, without civilization, and condemned these pyramids as made up.  But there is no clue on how these barbarians created these monuments based upon their claim.

Anyway, because of so many western archeologists eager to know the truth, and because some Chinese archeologist now accept the fact, China decided the opposite: declare the excavations for decades to come, and now started to Brainwash their kids that Koguryo is Chinese, and are making lies to the world that Koguryo is theirs

However, take one more stuff into account: Manchu pyramids equal North Korean pyramids in structure and look, and they are called architectural uniqueness, which are not seen in China nor Japan.

So anyway, who are these humans with civilization before 5000 years?

China?  No, they were farming in HwanHe

Mongol? Nein, there were no mongol living at that time

Khitan, Normad? No, they were pure horsemen, are are not familiar to what we call as civilization

So, who has connection with this ancient civilization?

In every possible textbook dating ancient text, it is referred as Old Choson or Baedal(main: Handangogi)

There has also been Bronze tool found in Manchu, 4400 years back, China's first bronze date back to 4200

The "mighty" China's butts ended up in their mouth!

Even in Chinese text, they mention that Koguryo, Pekjae, and Shilla retained similar language.  And we are gradually finding evidence such as these proving Korean cultural supremacy over China.

http://www.china.org.cn/english/15802.htm

Even in this link, they admited till some point about things mentioned before

China claims their history as 1000 years long.  But it can never be 1000 years.  They were FORGED!  In their intentions on making Koguryo theirs, lies the TRUTH.  Because their history is fraud, they are trying to reform their history by making more lies such as these!  Koguryo's history is not only its region's history, but the Eastern Asia's (Remember, Baedal-Choson-Puyo-Koguryo)!

I am awaiting a heavy debate...

Just in case anyone was not bothered to see Ancient Civ section

And, according to Handangogi, Chiu, the God of war, was Baedal King.  He defeated the Chinese King in every battle, because he was ironclad at that time.



Edited by demon
Grrr..
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 14:31
do you have direct links to your sources? I want to see.
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 15:23
Nope.  I collected them from many sites.
Grrr..
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  Quote fastspawn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 21:44
I thought wuTao just said that these pyramids are actually in Xi'an?
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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 05:33

Yup.  Wrong pictures. 

I guess I would need to read more ancient texts before coming into a definite answer, no?

Grrr..
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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 20:25

Incidentally, there is another possible reason that the sites were off limit to visitors.  I think there were Koreans carrying banners claiming "we're taking over" when they were visiting Manchuria.  Not a very counterintuitive move on the part of China to close off the sites.

Granted, though, China is ridiculously nationalistic.  With nationalism always comes a need to define oneself historically.  It is one thing to be fascinated by the past dynasties; it is quite another thing to claim that such and such dynasties proved that "we were once a great people."  "We" are something that needs re-affirmation in every generation.  On what basis do we define "we" or "our nation?"  Is it land?  The Jews wandered for 2000 years without a land.  Furthermore, if the human race began in Africa, then every other land is acquired -- no one is strictly aboriginal to any place.  Is it ancestry?  That's an even more difficult definition.  The Chinese can trace their hybrid ancestry to many originall separate lines.  (Any Korean reading this and thinking "not our problem, we are a pure blood race" better reconsider the fact that different people have gone in and out of the Korean peninsula, leaving a hybrid ancestry.)  Is it history?  This only begs the question: whose history?  For the Manchurians assimilated into the Chinese people, are the Qin and Han dynasties a part of their history?  If there isn't one monolithic common history, then history cannot be a definition for nationality either.  Is it culture?  But it cannot be culture, because every nation consists of different cultural trends.  Confucianism can claim no more monopoly in China than Taoism.  Buddhism and Christianity can by now claim to be as Chinese as they as they are non-Chinese.  If nation is defined by uniform culture, it makes a lot more sense to define a particular sect as a nation.  Chinese nationalists, of course, are not the only people that irritate me, but being a Chinese myself, I would be slapping my mouth with my own words if I don't criticize them first.

Funny that the article should mention that China claims Korguryo as Chinese -- I've read that Koreans are claiming Eastern China to be historically Korean.  This reminds me of an episode of Sopranos: the Italian mafia were enraged when Christopher Columbus was decried as an oppressive conqueror.  (Christopher Columbus, though worked for the Spanish fleet, was Italian.)  The premise being that the mafia felt that they needed to defend their Italian pride.  Finally Tony Soprano said this to his fellow Italian: you're what you are because you've made it on your own, not because of such and such ancestor of the past.  It is a virtue to commemorate one's ancestors, but it is stupid to fight over "to whom does the past belong."  the nationalistic "historians" are portraying history with obvious agendas.  It doesn't mean that those pyramids didn't exist; it doesn't mean Han, Tang, Koguryo, Choson didn't exist; it doesn't mean there were no great civilization in the past; it doesn't mean that we inherited nothing from the past.  Rather, the dispute over "what belongs to whom" is no longer a study of facts and artifacts, nor even a historical interpretation of what might have happened -- it is ultimately a redefinition of the perimeter which wraps around the abstract and baseless concept of "nation."  For all we know some of my ancestors might be from Koguryo, and some of the Koreans here might be descendants of people from Han (not too difficult to imagine, considering one particular incident where 800000 people from the Korean peninsula was deported to Tang dynasty China.  I can only wonder how often people move back and forth between the two places.)  If the pyramids belong to Old Choson, that's where they belong; as far as we are concerned, the only things that belong to us are the things that we make ourselves.

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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 20:28

P.S.:

correction:  the Jews technically weren't "wandering" for 2000 years after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.  They were settled in various places, mostly the Mediterranean area, though some went as war as Kaifeng, China.  But for almost 2000 years they did not have a land to build their own country, until recently.

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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 08:02

Mengtzu, in the line back to top below your post, there should be a button called EDIT.  You can edit posts with that.

And that post was interesting.  I'll consider that.

Grrr..
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 16:02
...I think, at least concerning the Koguryo stuff, i have no idea what to say about Baedal, it is not only a racial factor that is important , but also a cultural factor.  Given Koguryo adopted a lot from China, I mean who da hell didn't?, Korea is technically the cultural descendant of Koguryo...Words, martial arts, food, and others are still inherent in Modern Korean culture...Iono, I'm starting to drift back to the whole Defend Koguryo mind set that won me so many friends at the China history forum....
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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 16:54

Hey Gubukjanggoon,

    First of all, what racial factor?  We're all Mongloids.  If you mean an ancestral factor, then like I said, how the heck do we know whose ancestor is who?  The founder of Koguryo, I've read, claims to be a descendant of Huangdi -- the same guy that most Chinese claim lineage from.  On the other hand, some Koreans suggest that their ancestry goes back to the Yi, and sure enough, many ancient Chinese figures were Yi or Yi-affiliated, and I'd say Koreans have as much right as Chinese to claim of lineage from Yi.  Furthermore, people from China and the Korean peninsula probably migrated back and forth a lot and intermarried a lot.  And after all of this, consider the people who moved into China and Korea from without.  Ancestry won't solve this problem.

    Nor would culture.  Like you said, Koguryo adopted cultures from China, but who can deny that it also inherited culture from aboriginal people in Korea?  Culture doesn't solve this problem.

    It seems a bit postmodern to say that "there is no solution."  I'd say that the solution is to leave Koguryo as it is: Koguryo.  It's not China, and it's not Korea.  Much like my great grandfather is not me.  We're great because of what we do, not because of what the people from thousands of years ago accomplished.

Peace,

Michael

8-21-2004

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 17:55
I can very well see what you are saying, I agree with everything that you stated except for the fact of leaving Koguryo as just Koguryo.  Koguryo was never just Koguryo.  Perhaps when the kingdom first started out, but since then it has always been Korean...since the time Koreans have written Korean history, it has been Korea...You are most likely right, race and culture have nothing to do with this issue, but it has been a part of Korean history forever.   To say that we should just leave it as Koguryo wouldn't be a situation where both sides lose it would be one where only Korea loses part of the cultural heritage that has been a part of its people ever since we have written our history...I can see what you are saying though

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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 23:10

Hey Gubukjanggoon,

    It's not really about both sides losing.  For example, I'd say that the Han Dynasty is no more Chinese as it is non-Chinese -- "China" is a modern convention used by us to categorize something in the past.  So what I'm saying goes far beyond the Koguryo situation: I think we need to rethink our conception of history altogether.  I'd continue to call Han a part of "Chinese" history and Koguryo a part of "Korean" history, since it is conventional to do so, and since they at least took place geographically in China and Korea, respectively.  But I urge everyone to deconstruct nationalistic history.

Peace,

Michael

8-21-2004

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 00:36
Meh...that's a tall order your're calling for there...but if it works more power to you...but until then I feel a little insecure about backing down.
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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 04:12

Hey Gubukjanggoon,

    Is enpowerment what it really comes down to?  I'm afraid so.  It seems that interest in one's history has too much to do with collective identity and pride, but little to do with objective truth.  =(

Peace,

Michael

8-22-2004

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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 06:39

[q]First of all, what racial factor?  We're all Mongloids.  If you mean an ancestral factor, then like I said, how the heck do we know whose ancestor is who?  The founder of Koguryo, I've read, claims to be a descendant of Huangdi -- the same guy that most Chinese claim lineage from.  On the other hand, some Koreans suggest that their ancestry goes back to the Yi, and sure enough, many ancient Chinese figures were Yi or Yi-affiliated, and I'd say Koreans have as much right as Chinese to claim of lineage from Yi.  Furthermore, people from China and the Korean peninsula probably migrated back and forth a lot and intermarried a lot.  And after all of this, consider the people who moved into China and Korea from without.  Ancestry won't solve this problem.[/q]

According to Legend, the founder of Koguryo came out of a golden egg

 

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 17:10
Yea...from what I read, Samgukyusa, He was a related to the King of Buyeo (in chinese Fuyo), as was the King of Baekje...As for the Yi thingy, I assume you are referring to the Dongyi, or Eastern Yi, and yea Koreans do claim that they come from those people, one of the many.  The Dongyi, at least from current studies, are said to be of Dravidian stock, fleeing the Aryan invasion of India at that time....So Koreans are Indian!  Thank you come again!

And about the more power to you, I meant more power to a better world where nationalism doesn't exist...I don't know how you interpreted it, but that's what i meant


Edited by Gubukjanggoon
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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2004 at 01:11

Hey Gubukjanggoon,

    Incidentally, I'd say that Chinese come from Dong Yi as much as Koreans.  And about power: don't you think we'll all be better off without nationalism?  Btw: why don't we just say that everyone is from African in line of your logic?

Peace,

Michael

8-22-2004



Edited by MengTzu
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2004 at 01:23
I'm saying I support you God damnit!....  I guess I'm just not good at conveying what I mean...As for the Dongyi thing, I didn't say that Chinese people were not related to them...I was just merely stating a random fact that I happened to know...One more time...I support your ideas friend!...ok...
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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Aug-2004 at 01:33

Hey Gubukjanggoon,

    I know you do support me  =)  Just because I pick bones with what you say, doesn't mean we don't agree with each other in the big picture.

Peace,

Michael

8-22-2004

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