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pekau View Drop Down
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Question about Russo-Turkish conflicts...
    Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 13:31
I know Ottoman Empire was declining, but why did the Turks lost so terribly against ill equipped and poorly trained Russians? Is it simply because Turkish armies were outdated? Poor strategics? What?
     
   
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Posts: 1144 		  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 13:41
Cause Russians in XVIII th century weren't so ill equiped as You think and for sure they were not poorly trained. In Russian army if I remeber well conscription was for 25 years so they were quite familiar with WarWink and Ottomans were in real decline. They also had many enemies: Balcan Nations and Habsburgs.
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Posts: 1108 		  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 14:36
I agree with Majkes. Russian army in 18th c. was one of the best in Europe.
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Posts: 1914 		  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 14:41
Originally posted by pekau

I know Ottoman Empire was declining, but why did the Turks lost so terribly against ill equipped and poorly trained Russians? Is it simply because Turkish armies were outdated? Poor strategics? What?
 
It depends on which period you are talking about.
 
In fact, in the first half of 18th century, Ottoman Empire defeated Russians in two wars that took place between two sides.
 
1711 Prut, where Peter the Great and his army was cornered by the Ottoman army and Ottomans surprisingly agreed to truce instead of smashing the opposite side,
 
1736-1739, where Ottomans defeated both Austrian Empire and Russia.
 
But in the second half of the same century, momentum was lost. Especially, 1768-1774 War, ending with Treaty of Kuchuk Kainarja, marks a new era where Russia became the greatest power in the region.
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 14:54

Originally posted by pekau

I know Ottoman Empire was declining, but why did the Turks lost so terribly against ill equipped and poorly trained Russians? Is it simply because Turkish armies were outdated? Poor strategics? What?

What a BS ! Where did you get such a biased judgment from?!  ConfusedConfusedConfused

Russian army in XVIII th-XIXth century was one of the most formidable fighting forces in Europe.
 
Who defeated Carl XII, Friedrich the Great and Napoleon, after all ?!!! Clap.
 
Do you think it was possible to achieve for "poor trained and ill ecquiped army" ? 
 
May be there were not great commander all the time.
 
But some of them are very impressive.
 
For example Suvorov is one of the most brilliant generals in the world's military history
 
 
The crossing of the Alps that he performed with his armies in Italy and Switzerland, besides him were done only by Napoleon and Hannibal. Suvorov is a general of their level.
 
The slow decline of the Russian military began only after the Crimean war. In fact, Crimean war was caused by the fear of British and French that Russia could become too powerful (including the military aspect).
 
As for Ottoman, despite their decline they still remained a strong and brave enemy. And for example during Suvorov's compaings' in XVIII century Ottomans were succesful in defeating Austrian army several times.
 
Don't forget that one of the few Napoleon's losses was also caused by Ottomans (seige of Akko).
 
Russian army was very well equiped (until the  Crimean war period), had a perfect organization and in the earlier period perfect commanders also.
 
 The army was a priority for Russian state and most of the times it was on the world's level and even better than that in some aspects.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 25-Jun-2007 at 17:05
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Posts: 1914 		  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 15:04
Originally posted by Majkes

Cause Russians in XVIII th century weren't so ill equiped as You think and for sure they were not poorly trained. In Russian army if I remeber well conscription was for 25 years so they were quite familiar with WarWink and Ottomans were in real decline. They also had many enemies: Balcan Nations and Habsburgs.
 
Balkan states were not in existence at the time, however constant hostilities with the Habsburgs remained till 1791 Treaty of Zishtovi
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Posts: 253 		  Quote andrew Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 17:00
Russia beat up on the Ottomans because really they were not match. Russia obsessed to be like Western Europe and adopt their government and weaponry while the Ottomans were content with hiring experts and being a third-tear producer of weapons.

The Ottoman were just no match for Russia simple as that.

"1736-1739, where Ottomans defeated both Austrian Empire and Russia."

That's not completely true. Against Russia they lost their fortification numerous times but the Russians were forced to leave the area due to lack of supplies. Austria wanted peace and Russia was sick of war. The Ottomans got lucky more then good.



Edited by andrew - 25-Jun-2007 at 17:07
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 17:25
Originally posted by andrew

Russia beat up on the Ottomans because really they were not match. Russia obsessed to be like Western Europe and adopt their government and weaponry while the Ottomans were content with hiring experts and being a third-tear producer of weapons.

The Ottoman were just no match for Russia simple as that.

"1736-1739, where Ottomans defeated both Austrian Empire and Russia."

That's not completely true. Against Russia they lost their fortification numerous times but the Russians were forced to leave the area due to lack of supplies. Austria wanted peace and Russia was sick of war. The Ottomans got lucky more then good.

 
Ottomans still were quite strong. The thing was that that the Russian military machine was too powerful at that time. The most advanced weapons and equipment, highly skilled soldiers with high morale, and brilliant commanders. Russian army at that time was superior not only compare to Turkey, but also compare to many European countries.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 26-Jun-2007 at 14:27
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Posts: 1144 		  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 17:35
Originally posted by Kapikulu

Originally posted by Majkes

Cause Russians in XVIII th century weren't so ill equiped as You think and for sure they were not poorly trained. In Russian army if I remeber well conscription was for 25 years so they were quite familiar with WarWink and Ottomans were in real decline. They also had many enemies: Balcan Nations and Habsburgs.
 
Balkan states were not in existence at the time, however constant hostilities with the Habsburgs remained till 1791 Treaty of Zishtovi
 
So that's why I said Nations.
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Posts: 1914 		  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 17:42
Originally posted by Majkes

 
So that's why I said Nations.
 
There was not that much of hostilities within Balkan nations and Ottoman Empire till 19th century, though. It all broke out after 19th century with the effect of the French Revolution, beginning with 1804 Serbia and going on in different places.
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Posts: 1914 		  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jun-2007 at 17:45
Originally posted by andrew


The Ottoman were just no match for Russia simple as that.
 
That statement is only true beginning from the 1768-1774 War.

Originally posted by andrew


That's not completely true. Against Russia they lost their fortification numerous times but the Russians were forced to leave the area due to lack of supplies. Austria wanted peace and Russia was sick of war. The Ottomans got lucky more then good.
 
A victory is a victory, and the result in that war was Ottoman victory, eventually with gains for the Ottoman Empire.
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Posts: 379 		  Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2007 at 10:27
The war between the ottomans and russo-austrian coalition in 1736-9 wasnt a crushing victory but it was a success for the ottomans. They fought against two major power and gain territories from them. We cant assume that ottoman army as rabble but decline was certain. Russian army was one of the best at this time interval.
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Posts: 353 		  Quote Joinville Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2007 at 15:04
Originally posted by Sarmat12

The crossing of the Alps thathe performed with his armies in Italy and Switzerland, besides him were done only by Napoleon and Hannibal. Suvorov is a general of their level.


Bernadotte did it too. (The Alp-passes are starting to look crowded.)
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Posts: 358 		  Quote kurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 10:56
Originally posted by pekau

I know Ottoman Empire was declining, but why did the Turks lost so terribly against ill equipped and poorly trained Russians? Is it simply because Turkish armies were outdated? Poor strategics? What?
The Russians were rising just as the Ottomans were declining. Many empires rise in this manner, the Ottomans rose at the expense of the declining Byzantine empire, the Khawrezm rose at the expense of the dieing Seljuks, the Soviets rose at the expense of Nazi germany, and Rome rose at the expense of the Carthaginians. In most of these cases there was more then one war between the two sides, but their overall effect was to weaken one empire and strengthen the other, such to the point that the stronger empire conquered the dieing one.
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 12:37
Originally posted by Joinville

Originally posted by Sarmat12

The crossing of the Alps that he performed with his armies in Italy and Switzerland, besides him were done only by Napoleon and Hannibal. Suvorov is a general of their level.


Bernadotte did it too. (The Alp-passes are starting to look crowded.)
 
Really? Sorry, I just didn't know about that. May be he is the 4th. Big%20smile
 
But Suvorov's expedition was indeed extremely hard. Until now (as I know) Swiss people have a proverb, smth. like "Suvorov's pass" in order describe smth really hard or the pass which he crossed is called "Suvorov's pass" and everybody knows there hor harsh it is. Unfortunately, I don't remember the details.
 
Image:Suworow-denkmal.jpg
No higher resolution available.
Suworow-denkmal.jpg (547 599 pixel, file size: 191 KB, MIME type: image/jpeg)

Suvorov monument in the Swiss Alps.



Edited by Sarmat12 - 27-Jun-2007 at 16:35
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Posts: 1270 		  Quote Jagatai Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 19:17
Originally posted by Kapikulu

Originally posted by pekau

I know Ottoman Empire was declining, but why did the Turks lost so terribly against ill equipped and poorly trained Russians? Is it simply because Turkish armies were outdated? Poor strategics? What?
 
It depends on which period you are talking about.
 
In fact, in the first half of 18th century, Ottoman Empire defeated Russians in two wars that took place between two sides.
 
1711 Prut, where Peter the Great and his army was cornered by the Ottoman army and Ottomans surprisingly agreed to truce instead of smashing the opposite side,
 
1736-1739, where Ottomans defeated both Austrian Empire and Russia.
 
But in the second half of the same century, momentum was lost. Especially, 1768-1774 War, ending with Treaty of Kuchuk Kainarja, marks a new era where Russia became the greatest power in the region.


Ottomans also defeated Russians in 1676-81 war.

In 1686, Russia joined the Holy League and in 1695 she attacked Azov, it was a unsuccessfull siege against the low numbered Ottoman troops, Russians retreated.However in 1696 they managed to capture the ruined fort, but it was the only Russian gain in that war which ended in 1700.



Edited by Jagatai Khan - 27-Jun-2007 at 19:19
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 23:02
My mistake then. I though Imperial Russian soldiers were badly armed and trained like prior to WWI. Can someone give me the reference for this though? I can't picture a well trained and armed Russian army with exception of Soviet Era...
     
   
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 23:17
I am posting this link about the great Suvorov one more time:
 
 
Check this out:
 
About Russian imperial army.
 
http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/Russian_army.htm
 
 
I wouldn't say that this site's description of the Russian Imperial Amry is totally authentic, but at least it gives some basic introduction.
 
Besides, also note that the negative features of the Russian army were common features of other Eurpean monarchies like Austrian and Prussia. French and English armies' organization was more flexible and progressive.
 
 
Some cool citations from this site Clap  Thumbs%20Up:
 
If the French had the firmness
and the docility of the Russians
the world would not be great enough for me."
- Emperor Napoleon

"... tell the Emperor that I am facing Russians.
If they had been Prussians, I'd have taken the
position long ago."
- Marshal Ney, 1813

 

 



Edited by Sarmat12 - 28-Jun-2007 at 00:02
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Edited by Sarmat12 - 27-Jun-2007 at 23:38
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Posts: 493 		  Quote Giannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2007 at 04:07
Originally posted by Kapikulu

Originally posted by Majkes

 
So that's why I said Nations.
 
There was not that much of hostilities within Balkan nations and Ottoman Empire till 19th century, though. It all broke out after 19th century with the effect of the French Revolution, beginning with 1804 Serbia and going on in different places.
 
What about the Orlov Revolt? It was a big failure for the greek forces, but it was quite helpful for the russians.
 
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