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THE ORIGIN OF ALL CIVILIZATIONS

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Moustafa Pasha View Drop Down
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  Quote Moustafa Pasha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: THE ORIGIN OF ALL CIVILIZATIONS
    Posted: 07-Jul-2005 at 22:49
All I have read above about the wheel  is fantasized speculation.Nobody knows who invented the wheel. But a 5000 year old wheel has been found in an archeology site in Mesopotamia. None have been found in steppes of Russia. How do you explain that.
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Decebal View Drop Down
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2005 at 09:39

Originally posted by Phallanx




While it is true that there have been finds of ashes in Mycenae, the major problem is that we have no similar finds in the near by cities of Tyrinth, Acini and Nauplio (to mention a few). A similar destruction (by fire) is found in Nestor's palace but that is miles away in a totally different region Messnia, which is what makes some archeologists skeptical and not all accept this theory.

Is it really reasonable to expect that during an invasion, all towns of a civilization would be torched? Usually, the capital might suffer such a fate, while the old leading elements of the society are destroyed, but if the conquerors intend to take over the society, they will not do the same for every city.

What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi

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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2005 at 13:16
So we suppose that they took over the capital and left the other cities grow and prosper? Cause that is what happened, Tyrinth, right after the destuction of Mycenae became the area's strongest city.
Why allow this when they're only a couple of miles apart? You can see that the theory obviously has some flaws.


Edited by Phallanx
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Decebal View Drop Down
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2005 at 13:58

Well, not necessarily: put yourself in the position of the invaders: you burned down a capital and established yourself as the ruler of the country. Now what? Lifes goes on and you want to install yourself as a ruling class over the original inhabitants. You may move the capital to another prosperous city (Tyrinth), since Mycenae would cost too much to rebuild. The other cities prosper, but they're controlled by you and pay taxes to you now, so you're obviously going to let them go on.

Makes sense to me...

What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi

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  Quote Phallanx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2005 at 15:03
So your saying that you'd conquer one city and allow Tyrinth, only 10-20 miles away, grow to be the most powerfull city of the region?
How on earth can you demand that they'd supposedly pay taxes when you can't subdue them in the first place, when they've grown far more powerfull than you are?
Sorry but that doesn't make sence to me.
Anyway, I think we're wandered far off topic.

So where is the origin of civilization and how do we define civilization?
To the gods we mortals are all ignorant.Those old traditions from our ancestors, the ones we've had as long as time itself, no argument will ever overthrow, in spite of subtleties sharp minds invent.
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Decebal View Drop Down
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2005 at 16:28

In ancient times, commercial power did not always equal military power. If the Dorians would have controlled Tirinth militarily, its citizens would have had no choice but to pay taxes. Besides, nothing says that they could not have formed a substantial part of Tirinth's population, or have made Tirinth their capital. Seems simple enough to me...

Anyway, you're right: we have veered off topic. Civilization: I would say that the prime requirement for it is agriculture. A surplus of food would generate a substantial class of people which can be dedicated full time to other endeavours, such as religious, commercial, administration, military and cultural  (arts, music, drama) matters. This also creates a non-egalitarian society. That to me is civilization. Some people get fixated on writing or architectural achievements, but I think that they are not really necessary, in order to term a culture a civilization. The first place in the wrold where civilization appeared is probably Mesopotamia. I think that we should avoid the term origin, since it implies that all subsequent civilizations spread from there.

What is history but a fable agreed upon?
Napoleon Bonaparte

Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi

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