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Expansionist States of Today
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Posts: 1869 		  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Expansionist States of Today
    Posted: 06-Jul-2007 at 16:10
Originally posted by aslanlar

As for the people who say Turkey want Northern Cyprus: Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't Turkey one of the only nations to recognize North Cyprus as an independant country, rather then Turkish land?

That's just a show. I remember, once a Turkish general scolded CTP members, the party which formed the N. Cyprus government, for not playing Turkish national anthem during their congress.
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Posts: 928 		  Quote maqsad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2007 at 16:18
Originally posted by aslanlar

As for the people who say Turkey want Northern Cyprus: Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't Turkey one of the only nations to recognize North Cyprus as an independant country, rather then Turkish land?


Yes I think Turkey recognizes the legitimate rights to sovereignty of North Cyprus but I just made a very stretched assumption that eventually pan turkism would motivate north cyprus to want to unite with the motherland for the sake of a better economy and defence.
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Posts: 468 		  Quote HEROI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2007 at 16:30
Originally posted by Desperado

 

closest example in the near future could be Albania (but for now she's expanding only demographically).
 
 
 
how could albania posibly be an example in the near future,when albania is sorrounded by albanian-speaking people on all sides?And as a matter of fact albania is not expanding demographicaly,like the rest of europe albania has a problem with increasingly old population in the next few years.or u just posting something for the sake of it even if u dont thing before u right,i thinkj thats the case.
Me pune,me perpjekje.
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Posts: 8595 		  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2007 at 22:51
Originally posted by Panther

Can i vote for the martians, the last i heard... they nearly succeeded in wiping out the human population of the world, in their quest for expansion and domination. Like we really need any help from a bunch of aliens! I mean hollywood say's so...

(**Note**) This is not offical sarcasm from me. Just trying too bring a little levity too a thread that will eventually evolve into a bunch of flaming post's!
 
Thank you Orson Welles Smile. Your display of levity is appreciated in this thread.


Edited by Seko - 06-Jul-2007 at 22:52
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Posts: 358 		  Quote kurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 02:18
Originally posted by maqsad

China has grabbed a chunk of Kashmir and India, also Tibet and soon Taiwan(although that is just a runaway province)

Japan wants its Kuril Islands back one day by hook or by crook

Pakistan already grabbed 1/3 of Kashmir, Annexed much of Balochistan including Kalat and wants the rest of Kashmir

Afghanistan wants to annex all of western pakistan and if possible the rest of pakistan to reestablish the Durrani empire

India annexed the independent state of Hydrabad, part of Kashmir and wants even more lands up there

Turkey wants to annnex some or all of Cyprus, Azerbaijan and Armenia and dump as many kurds as possible into Iraq

Iran wants to annex southern Iraq or at least rule it by proxy for a few decades first, and also trying to annex Azerbaijan in competition with Turkey.

US wants to annex Mexico and Canada into a North American Union

Greece wants to annex some if not all of Cyprus in competition with Turkey

Libya has been messing with Chad quite a bit, dunno the details

Iraq was trying to annex their province Kuwait back a few years ago.

But besides all that we have a lot of secessionist movements or "contractionist" forces like the Tamil tigers, basque seperatists, Baloch separatists, Kurd separatists, muslims in philipines and of course former Yuguslavia...
 
Afghanistan wants to annex territories? Surely the puppet regime the Americans have installed are more concerned with internal tribalism then expansion. Where have you read this?
 
Turkey doesn't want to annex any territory. But assuming they did, why would they want to annex Armenia, and their own brethren, Azerbaijan? The Azeri's are the greatest ally Turkey has.
 
Iran is trying to annex Azerbaijan too? Provide a source.
 
US wants to annex Mexico and Canada into a North American Union. That's an interesting claim, can you validify it with a source? I think you've misinterpretted the definition of annexation. Perhaps the US is pressuring its neighbours to enter an economic union, however, this does not qualify as expansion.
 
Greece is not expansionist. If they were, they would not support the Turkish bid for membership in the Europeon Union.
 
As for China, India, and Pakistan, i agree that they are expansionist states, in spite of the fact that none of them officially have an expansionist policy. I suppose in this case it is a matter of speculation.
 
Regarding Japan, i assume you are speaking of their territorial disputes with Russia. I am not really sure what the status quo is in this situation, perhaps you should discuss it in further detail.
 
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 04:47
Originally posted by maqsad


Japan wants its Kuril Islands back one day by hook or by crook
getting back territory grabbed off you is not expansionist. USSR took those islands at the end of WW2 when Japan couldnt defend them. If anything it shows Russian expansion.

Originally posted by maqsad

US wants to annex Mexico and Canada into a North American Union

you mistake annex with control. which BTW would be more than just their immediate sphere Wink

Originally posted by maqsad

Greece wants to annex some if not all of Cyprus in competition with Turkey

Greece has no interest in annexing, occupying, controlling or uniting with Cyprus. Cyprus has no interest in uniting with Greece either, but she has the right to. EU membership is enough for both.
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Posts: 1869 		  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2007 at 10:15
Originally posted by maqsad

Yes I think Turkey recognizes the legitimate rights to sovereignty of North Cyprus

That's a lie.
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Posts: 358 		  Quote kurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2007 at 00:54
Feanor, you need to substantiate your arguments, rather then simply making blank claims like that. Why do you believe Turkey doesn't recognise the sovereignty of North Cyprus?
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Posts: 1869 		  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2007 at 02:44
Are you joking? Of course it doesn't.

Originally posted by Feanor

That's just a show. I remember, once a Turkish general scolded CTP members, the party which formed the N. Cyprus government, for not playing Turkish national anthem during their congress.
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Posts: 0 		  Quote Joe Boxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2007 at 18:03
Originally posted by kurt

 
Look, i specifically stated that i will not enter a disccusion where one incessantly patronizes me. Your insistence to maintain this attitude is extremely irritating. I've already reported you to the moderators.
 
Regarding your points:
 
The US is the most powerful country in the world. If any nation could stop them from annexing pretty much any territory they wanted, why didn't the UN denouncement of the Iraq invasion stop them? Whilst the US is occupying Iraq and Afghanistan, they are not annexing these territories, which is a prerequisite of expansion. Please elaborate on American intentions regarding the Phillipines, Hawaii, Japan and Latin America.
 
You dont have to tell everyone your "annexing" such and such an area. I mean Historians dont fall for that kind of lingo. The British Empire, back in the 1910s told the World they were bringing Democracy to the Levant by helping Arab tribes fight off the Ottoman Empire.
 
What happened? The Brits made a deal with the French: Sykes-Picot agreement.
 
Its a play of words. Only really simple people fall for that kind of sh*t. Sometimes i honestly wonder, if being booksmart makes you lose your street smarts. Western Nations are obviously book-smart, but they struggle in a world of theories and ideas too much while the reality is occuring under their noses.
 
Do you think the French flaunted themselves as an Empire when they ruled over Al'Djazair {Algeria}?
 
Americans are empire-phobic, naturally their leaders have to play a game of diction to make their permanent stay in Iraq more appealing. Afterall no one builds a $14 billion dollar "Embassy". Thats a one helluva embassy you got there.
 
Nur al Maliki is the "Governor-General" so to speak. So is that dude who runs Kabul in Afghanistan. And thats pretty much all he runs, Kabul.
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Posts: 0 		  Quote Joe Boxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2007 at 18:10
Originally posted by kurt

 
 
Russia - Chechnya was Russian territorry, then successfully secceeded into its own nation-state, only to be annexed again by Russia. However, Chechnya as a nation only existed for about three years, and was never legitimized as a state officially in the UN. Despite these factors, i suppose on a technicality, Russia is expansionist. I would appreciate if you would elaborate as to the situations regarding Dagestan and Ossetia, whilst i have never even heard Of Ossetia, I am vaguely familiar with Dagestan and from what i know it have been Russian territory for about two centuries now.
 
 
To me, Russia is that one Empire that just wont collapse. Tongue
 
When did they begin expanding Eastwards? Then to the South? China is also a modern day empire. They took over Tibet and East Turkestan and who knows what will happen in 50 years?
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2007 at 18:31

Going by what people here are saying, Iran would not be annexing Azerbaijan, even if it were trying (I don't know if it is or not) since Russia annexed it from Iran in 1812 - it would be more a case of reunification.
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Posts: 4221 		  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2007 at 18:39
Originally posted by Zagros

Going by what people here are saying, Iran would not be annexing Azerbaijan, even if it were trying (I don't know if it is or not) since Russia annexed it from Iran in 1812 - it would be more a case of reunification.

 
Revanchism is a powerful force (often used by politicians).  Iran would re-annex Azerbaijan if she could get away with it. 
 
But that would probably mean war with Russia.  An "independant" Azerbaijan will be tolerated by Russia as long as no one else controls it. 
 
 
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2007 at 19:23

Well in order to re-annex it, Iran would have had to have annexed it in the first place, or do you refer to the Achaemenid unification of Persia and Medea as the initial annexation? In which, case you would at least be half correct.  Until 1812, with brief intermissions caused by invaders Albania/Arran/Shirvan (first referred to officially as Azerbaijan by Russia and Ottomans with designs on Azerbaijan proper since 1918), was very much a part of every major Iranian state - Sassanid border fortifications as far north as Dagestan attest to this.  And I don't know how averse the republic's population would be to the notion considering the highly favourable social and economic status of Iranian Azaris which has led to a net migration to Iran over the last few years of the republics highly impovrished population.



Edited by Zagros - 10-Jul-2007 at 19:25
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Posts: 4221 		  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2007 at 19:46

Re-annexation was taken from your date of 1812. 

All I can say is that Russia is hardly likely to allow Azerbaijan to fall under the control of "another power" without serious consequences.
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Posts: 572 		  Quote longshanks31 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2007 at 20:26
I think by and large the best places to look for this sort of thing is in africa and in the future the case of who owns what in antartica with reference to possible oil supplies.
 
I think on the whole most countries expand via economics rather than war these days.
 
As far as american expansion is concerned, this has been the turning point in the rise of america as a lone superpower.
Give it twenty years or so and i think they will be down to fourth place on the world stage.
Only time will prove that right or wrong.
 
I would like to add that in reference to part of the thread starter, for the intermediate future atleast yes i do think that vast expansions are a thing of the past.
though that time may come again.
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Posts: 0 		  Quote Joe Boxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2007 at 20:49
American Empire.
 
Clearly it is expanding, i dont understand why you guys are denying it. Theres no reason to implement Aristotilean Greek logic to discuss if it is an Empire or not.
 
America has been an Empire since 1783.
-Manifest Destiny (as long as you consider the native americans as real human beings with rights, a sense of human value, and a right to their land, only then will you realize America's imperialism of manifest destiny)
 
Manifest Destiny for non-Americans: Americans believed they had the right to move all the way to the Pacific Ocean. It was their destiny to do so. God wanted them to expand from the 13 colonies to the other end of the ocean.
 
-obtaining Phillipines post American Empire vs Spanish Empire.
-Mexican American War and then the annexxation of the Republic of Texas
-Japanese intervention (Commodore Perry)
- WW1
- WW2 and China intervention
- Korean War
- Vietnam War
- American - Iraqi War 1
- American Afghano-Iraqi War
 
Just because they dont formally declare it, doesnt mean they arent an empire.
 
I doubt the Roman Republic, after conquering the Carthiginian Empire, proclaimed "vive la imperiamos!" (or however they say it). They didnt have to say it, we made them an Empire by neatly placing them in that category. Same thing we do for Han Empire, Tang Empire, Sassanid Empire, Axumite Empire, etc. No reason America has to formally declare it either. It just is one.
 
Historians when they look back at the USA are going to see its expansion from Virginia to the Pacific Ocean, and then its brief pauses in Phillipines, war with Mexico, and intervention/location elsewhere as an Empire-Building tactic.
 


Edited by Joe Boxer - 10-Jul-2007 at 20:51
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Posts: 0 		  Quote Joe Boxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2007 at 20:55
BTW- being an Empire isnt neccessarily bad. Its about what you do with your power.
 
America, believe it or not, was loved by everyone, even the Muslim world -
 
ESPECIALLY the Muslim World (who viewed them as helpers against Russian Expansion)
 
It was only during the Vietnam War - America's Battle of Lepanto so to speak - that it began utilizing tougher measures to make itself victor.
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2007 at 15:43
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Re-annexation was taken from your date of 1812. 

All I can say is that Russia is hardly likely to allow Azerbaijan to fall under the control of "another power" without serious consequences.

 
Oh, I see.  But yes, we were speaking speculatively without consideration of any variables, what's more is that in this day and age it is hardly possible to physically annex another country.   The only way it would be possible would be through soft measures, not militarily.
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2007 at 04:38
Azerbaijan is more or less under Turkish - UK - US influence anyway. No need to make a take over formal, if you already have a friendly government and a  pipeline
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