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Ethnic difference between Mongolic and Turkic?

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  Quote The_Turks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ethnic difference between Mongolic and Turkic?
    Posted: 15-Aug-2007 at 09:01
Don't you know Kk Trks? or do you think that when Turks ruled the steppes Mongols were livin in the moon? No gurl, they were living and fighting under Turkish flag...  
 
Turkic men were the most capable wariors of Chingis Khan. When the Khan wanted to conquer Europe he sent Kipchaks(Altinorda).
I mean Temujin's state and army cannot be defined as only Mongol Army -Empire. TURK-MONGOL ARMY - EMPIRE, that's true.  Coz as you know Turks were more crowded than Mongols. After Temujin, Mongols were asimilated among a great Turkic population. Now how many Mongols are livin in the earth? 200 Million Turks are there...
 
You should learn more about ur nation's history(If ur a Mongol, I don't no)
 
 
PROUD TO BE TURKMEN...

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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 00:46
Originally posted by The_Turks

Don't you know Kk Trks? or do you think that when Turks ruled the steppes Mongols were livin in the moon? No gurl, they were living and fighting under Turkish flag...  
 
Turkic men were the most capable wariors of Chingis Khan. When the Khan wanted to conquer Europe he sent Kipchaks(Altinorda).
I mean Temujin's state and army cannot be defined as only Mongol Army -Empire. TURK-MONGOL ARMY - EMPIRE, that's true.  Coz as you know Turks were more crowded than Mongols. After Temujin, Mongols were asimilated among a great Turkic population. Now how many Mongols are livin in the earth? 200 Million Turks are there...
 
You should learn more about ur nation's history(If ur a Mongol, I don't no)
 
 
 
What does being capable warriors have to do with the ethnicity of Genghis? Just becuase the turks were capable warriors, does not prove that Genghis was half-turk. Nor does it prove that the Mongols themselves, are turks. By the way, i am not a Mongol, my ancestors were Pontian Greeks, who migrated from asia minor to yugoslavia. I am Greek, but that is irrelivent in this conversation. And for the record, i embrace the brotherhood of ALL races.
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  Quote The_Turks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 06:26
There is a theory that some of Temujin's ancestors were from a Turkic tribe "Shato". 
 
I thought that u could be a Mongol coz of ur words about Nomads, u behave like an expert about their TRE(unwriten laws) :D . Sorry If that question disturbed u...  
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 22:54
Originally posted by The_Turks

There is a theory that some of Temujin's ancestors were from a Turkic tribe "Shato". 
 
 
 
Exactly, and that "theory" is not a provable one. It was more than likely created by people who want Genghis to be a turk.
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  Quote The_Turks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2007 at 08:32
In fact, history consists of billions of theories Wink
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2007 at 14:50
Well, I have to say the most accepted theory is the Chighiz khan was born of Monglolian parents.
 
His farther Yesughei was from the noble mongolian Kyat tribe, mother Hoelun was from Olkhunut (Ungerat) tribe which is also commonly believed to be a Mongolian tribe.
 
The theories of Turkic origins of Chenghizkhan are recent ones and they do not have the authority of "Mongolian" theory.
 
Elite and best troops of Chenghizkhan always consisted of Mongols.
 
He never send Kypchaks to conquer the West. In fact the Mongol invasion to Europe was caused by the pursue of Kypchak tribes by Mongolian chiefs Subudai and Dzhebe-noion.
 
The first battle between Russians and Mongols happened, because Russian princes refused to give up their Kypchak allies to Mongols. As a result Mongols decimated the united Russian-Kypchak army at the battle of Kalka river in 1223.
 
Later invasion to the west of Batu-khan also officially were caused by the need to acomplish the task of " complete extermination of Kypchaks"
 
As a result Mongols complitely destroyed western Kypchaks (Cumans) steppe federation in the Eastern Europe and the remnants of those Kypchaks had to flee to Hungary and Poland. The descendants of these Kypchaks still live in Hungary.
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  Quote The_Turks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2007 at 06:17
Sarmat12,
 
The word Kypchak includes Tatars, Kazakhs, Kyrgyzs, Nogays, Baskirts...
 
As you know eastern Tatars was allies of Chingis Khan and they fought for him in the west. After Temujin's death they took authority of Altinorda Khanate. Now, Tatars, Kyrgyzs and Kazakhs are living former lands of Altinorda where they came with Mongols. 
 
Also Uigurs and other Qarluq tribes fought for Chingis!!!
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2007 at 15:27
Word "Kypchaks" doesn't include everything you listed below. Kypchaks are some of the ancestors of those ehtnicities but they are not equal to them.
 
Mongol army included many people including Russians and Chinese, Persians etc. It was just common for them to use the warriors from the conquered nations.
 
The brought Chinese to Russia and Russians to China, it doesn't make Mongols Chinese or Russians
 
That's why they also used conquered tribes from the Central Asia as an vanguard during their expeditions in the West.
 
Tatars is in fact a name of Mongol tribe, which later by confusion became a name for different Turkic ethnicities. Even now many of modern "Tatars" are not happy with this name.
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  Quote Kerimoglu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2007 at 17:55

Dear Honorable Penelope, watching BBC Documentary movie about Chingiz, and learning his wifes name doesnt really make you historian, and especially if you are trying to prove 5 Turkish guys who have been swimming in the Lake of History, who they are and who they are not. In every topic, related to Turkish/c identity, I see u pup up and post a message that does not consist of any fact, but simly of ignorance.

 
Chingizs parents were not of Turkish tribes, it is clear more or less, but when he attacked Tatars, he actually married 2 Tatar girls - doughters of the tribesman?
 
Dont u know that when he attacked Kharasmshahs, 75% his army was of Turkish Tribes?
 
Do u know that having a Turkish army, and being a mongol, living together for centuries will actually make you mixed and soon, in 20th century,  when Azerbaijan Turk goes to Ulan-Bator, he understands, writes and talks the language full grammatically after 1 minmum and 3 maximum months???
 
Are you aware of the fact that regardles what US girl will claim about the etnicity of 2 nations that have been living along in Great Steppes of Asiam, they are both altaic, and we are more closer to each other than with any other nation?
 
Please and Please, I do not have any kind of radicalism towards you, naither otehr Turks here, keep calm, and if u have an argument, put it into MEYDAN and lets discuss!
History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow!
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2007 at 23:17
Originally posted by Kerimoglu

Dear Honorable Penelope, watching BBC Documentary movie about Chingiz, and learning his wifes name doesnt really make you historian, and especially if you are trying to prove 5 Turkish guys who have been swimming in the Lake of History, who they are and who they are not. In every topic, related to Turkish/c identity, I see u pup up and post a message that does not consist of any fact, but simly of ignorance.

 
Chingizs parents were not of Turkish tribes, it is clear more or less, but when he attacked Tatars, he actually married 2 Tatar girls - doughters of the tribesman?
 
Dont u know that when he attacked Kharasmshahs, 75% his army was of Turkish Tribes?
 
Do u know that having a Turkish army, and being a mongol, living together for centuries will actually make you mixed and soon, in 20th century,  when Azerbaijan Turk goes to Ulan-Bator, he understands, writes and talks the language full grammatically after 1 minmum and 3 maximum months???
 
Are you aware of the fact that regardles what US girl will claim about the etnicity of 2 nations that have been living along in Great Steppes of Asiam, they are both altaic, and we are more closer to each other than with any other nation?
 
Please and Please, I do not have any kind of radicalism towards you, naither otehr Turks here, keep calm, and if u have an argument, put it into MEYDAN and lets discuss!
 
First of all, i have never even watched a BBC doucmentary, or any other documentarys, as a matter of fact, i dont even have access to BBC, so i am a bit confused as to why you would say that to me. Now, you have taken the time to type a WHOLE lot, of which i already know about. Can you please add something new to this conversation? And none of what you have typed, has anything to do with the ethnicity of Genghis, or the Mongols for that matter.
Finally, what does me being currently in the US, have to do with this discussion? lol
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  Quote Kerimoglu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2007 at 08:47
Smile, If you already know the facts I counted, then I am really sorry, but it seems you have some mental problems becouse u deny Mongolic - Turkic close relationship throughout the history. In order to watch BBC documentary movies you do not need to have the access to BBC, even commentaries are enough from the Internet, and in fact If u really was interested, that movie should have been one of the important sources on Ghengis.
 
There are Mongols and Turks here with facts in their hands, both official and non official, and you from US try to deny them.
History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow!
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2007 at 03:56
Originally posted by Kerimoglu

Smile, If you already know the facts I counted, then I am really sorry, but it seems you have some mental problems becouse u deny Mongolic - Turkic close relationship throughout the history. In order to watch BBC documentary movies you do not need to have the access to BBC, even commentaries are enough from the Internet, and in fact If u really was interested, that movie should have been one of the important sources on Ghengis.
 
There are Mongols and Turks here with facts in their hands, both official and non official, and you from US try to deny them.
 
Mental problems? lol, so you have now resorted to Name Calling, which in my honest opinion, is extremely immature, and shows a lack of respect for fellow chatters. What does me being in the US, have to do with anything? Please elaborate.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Aug-2007 at 08:29
Kerimoglu, resorting to ad hominem attacks towards another forumer is poor taste. It shows lack of respect and lack of material to argue your point of view. This is an informal warning.
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  Quote kamran Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2007 at 04:12

Pene,

 
Why are you bent upon divorcing ethnic Turks from ethnic Mongols????
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2007 at 16:36
I think that the Mongols and Turkics were originally classified as belonging to two different racial groups and spoke different languages.They had physical and cultural differences. The Turkics were Caucasoids, the Mongols were Mongoloid. The original Turkic homeland was the area of Turkestan (where Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan,Kazakhstan and Kyrghyzstan are). The Mongol homeland was in present-day Mongolia. Both peoples have spread out into adjoining areas over the centuries. There has been a great deal of intermarriage and cultural intermixture. Nowadays the term Tatar is applied to many of the peoples with a mixed Turkic/Mongol heritage (though the original term 'Tatar' came from one tribe). The historic Mongol Empire was originally created when Ghengis Khan unified the individual Mongol tribes, then it later grew to include many Turkic tribes. Modern Mongolians claim a heritage from Genghis Khan's Empire, as do many modern Turkics. One remaining difference however is that most present-day Turkics are Islamic, while most present-day Mongols are Buddhist.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 02:05
Welcome to AllEmpires A. Windemere.
 
Catagorizing Turks and Mongols has surfaced from diverse strategies of classification. Linguistic, cultural, historical, etc...  It is not necessary to overgeneralize since both groupings did and do have overlapping distinctions.
 
Let's throw out the terms Caucasian and Mongoloid and even Turanian for a moment. The Turks share(d) qualities from each distinction. The Mongols may have as well. Mongol ancestry is to thought to have come from the Xianbe tribes of Manchuria. The Turks from the possibly the Ting Ling and most likely the Khun. Regarding a homeland, this also varies. Both are thought to have shared a Siberian homeland. In following centuries the name 'Turk' came to the fold. The leading nobility was from the Ashina clan. They lived in the Altai mountain range. A noble and religiously sanctified locale. All members of that Steppe community was called Kok Turuk or Blue Turks. Aside from the dominant Ashina their were numerous Oguz and some Tiele people. They all took the moniker Turk in due time.
 
Meanwhile the name Mongol had not been invented yet. However, scholars believe that the tribe overthrown by the Blue Turks, the Juan Juan (Ruruan), were proto Mongols. Much later, it is also believed that Genghis Khan came from the Borjgin clan of the Menwu Shiwei. The Shiwei were similar to the Khitans. They shared the same language as the ancestors of the Jurchens and Manchus. They were known as Malgals.
 
Both the Turks and Mongols had some ancestry as the 'Hu' too. This was another classification. They were basically called so as a generic term by the Chinese for those barbarian tribes north of the border. There were five Hu peoples mentioned as noteworthy in having their own designation. They were the  XiongNu, Xianbe Jie, Di, and Qiang. It is believed that the Xiongnu's main branch of clans were proto Turks and the Xianbe were proto Mongols. This was around the time of the 16 kingdoms of China. The 5 Hu were known as the Wu Hu. So next time you drink a Mountain Dew and you get the urge to shout' Woo Hoo', remember thsoe Steppe tribes you honor!Wink 


Edited by Seko - 09-Oct-2007 at 02:19
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2007 at 03:42
I'd also like to add that according to some scholars Ashina clan had Mongolian (Xianbi) origins.
 
Regarding the Mongoloid features of ancient Turks, the head of Kultegin Kagan's statue (the Kagan-king of the Blue Turks Kaganat) luckily survived until our days. It clearly has Mongoloid features, as well as some other ancient turk statues and obelisks.
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 01:58
Sarmatian12 maybe you could shine some light on this question. I ran across some literature that mentions the Kok Turuk inscriptions were carved by Chinese artisans. Do you know much about that?
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 19:33
Yeah, I happen to be familiar with that Smile.
 
In fact Kultegin monument is just a small remaining part of the huge, memorial complex built by Chinese artisans.
 
Chinese emperor sent a special deligation after Kultegin passed away which included diplomats, many gifts, slaves and artisans, which built a beautiful Chinese-style temple surrounded by the wall in the place where Kultegin was buried.
 
Since Gok-Turk Kaganate had very close relations with China, it's not surpising that such event become possible. Moreover, as we know Gok-Turks before creating their own independent state lived in China and were the subjects of Tang dinasty emperor, so when they moved back to the steppe they were influenced greatly by Chinese civilization especially in the realm of art.
 
So, it's kind of natural that Chinese artisants were invited to build that complex.
 
Besides the temple, there was the famous Kultegin monument which luckily sirvived and statue of Kultegin and his wife (if I am correct), later the statues were destroyed by the Uigurs, though the head of Kultegin statue also survived.
 
The monument itself has inscriptions both in Turk language written in Runes and in Chinese.
 
Interestingly, the contents of Chinese and Turk inscriptions differ significantly. While Turk inscriptions emphasize the animosity between Chinese and Nomadic civilization, Chinese inscription seems to interpret the event in a Chinese way and trying to create a view of Kultegin as almost a trusted vassal of China and say that the creation of Gok-Turk Kaganate was nothing but the will of Heaven, although in fact it was geopolitical catastrophy for Tang dinasty.
 
Turk inscription on the contrary writes that Turk people literally were "suffocating" in China and they freed themselves by escaping to the steppe and recreating the great Kaganate.
 
Turk and Chinese inscriptions also give some different details of the same events and in some parts complement each other.
 
Apparently the monument was also created by the Chinese artisants.
 


Edited by Sarmat12 - 10-Oct-2007 at 19:34
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 19:46
Thanks for your detailed and informative answer! I've been on a Steppe kick again lately (3 books ordered form Amazon over the last week proves that I am turning into a geek).
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