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Ethnic difference between Mongolic and Turkic?

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Afsar Beghi View Drop Down
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  Quote Afsar Beghi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ethnic difference between Mongolic and Turkic?
    Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 03:49

Can it be possible that the Mongols were a elite-turkic tribe, that named themselves mongols? And because they were elite they chose to use a slightly  different language than the normal turkic people.
This because I am reading a book about Genghis Kahn from Paul Ratchnevsky, in which he suggest that some tribes were Turkic but had Mongol tribe names


Dadaloğlum bir gun kavga kurulur,
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2007 at 15:56
 
First of all, Mongols were not Turkic tribe.
 
They were elites in Central Asia only after Chengizhan.
 
Their language is not slightly different from Turkic. A friend of mine studied the Turkic loan words in "the Secret History of Mongols" and she could find only a few hundreds of words. I have given some time ago the comparison of basic numbers in Turkic and Mongolic, the difference is striking.
 
 Linguistics agree that Mongol language can't be compared to Turkic in terms of advancement. So it could never be an elite language. 
 
Those Turkic tribes with Mongolic names (maybe Naiman, Kereit) only due to the strong mongolic influence after the decrease of Turkic dominance in eastern steppe.
 
 
 
 
 
Either make a history or become a history.
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  Quote Afsar Beghi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2007 at 10:33
But I heard the grammatic is almost the same.
But cant it be that they have similar genetics?
That they originated from the same place (ergenekon), but split into two people?
Dadaloğlum bir gun kavga kurulur,
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2007 at 17:50
It is not true, even among Turkic languages there are some grammatical differences. 
 
Genitic studies don't give us genetic relations as we expected.
 
Ergenekon was the shelter only for Mongols after their defeat by Tartars.  The date for this event can be traced back to only several hundred years before Chengizkhan.  While the origin of Turkic peoples can be traced back to thousands of years before that.
 
BTW, which Turkic people believe in this Ergenekon legend, and celebrate the day of their coming out as Mongols?
 
 
  
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2007 at 09:42
I think Oghuzs (Turkey Turks) believe Ergenekon Legend. I remember reading it on the school book.
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  Quote BAWIR$AQ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2007 at 15:35
Genetically, Kazak Turks and Khalkha Mongols have a lot in common and a lot of them share the same genetic haplogroup C (M130):

http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf

http://www.pnas.org/content/vol98/issue18/images/large/pq1713050001.jpeg

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  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2007 at 17:09
I heard from an Russian kazakh that in the begin of the 90's many mongolians did move into Kazakhstan, couldnt be bcuz of that Bawirsaq?


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  Quote The_Turks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2007 at 14:29

Is there anybody who can proof that ancient Altaic people had Mongoloid genes?

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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 00:01

The Mongols were definately NOT Turks. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to know that Genghis united all of the Mongol tribes, Tatar tribes, and even a few Turkic tribes, who would later happily consider themselves to be a proud member of the newly created Mongol Nation.

ALSO, Genghis was not a Turk. And no one can prove otherwise.
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 01:23
As I know, there is evidence that Chenhiz-khan's mother was Turkic, which was not something impossible for that region at that time.
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 04:56
Originally posted by Sarmat12

As I know, there is evidence that Chenhiz-khan's mother was Turkic, which was not something impossible for that region at that time.
 
YES! it is very possible, but not provable. Turkic tribes did exist in the region, but every single one of them, was conquered by "Ghengis Khan", or how ever you spell it. Which in turn shows that the Turks were merely conquered by the Mongols, and Unified with the newly dubbed "Mongol Nation", under the Universal Ruler.
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  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 05:41
infact Chengiz khan was able to unify almost all Turkic tribes under his name (by force or whatever you might call), those who where living under his name where loyal as any mongolian to him. You can see that by his army, which consisted of many Turkic tribes.




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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 07:17
I would like for someone to attempt to prove to me, that the Mongols, as a WHOLE, were Turks.

Edited by Penelope - 13-Aug-2007 at 07:17
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  Quote The_Turks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2007 at 05:04
Originally posted by Penelope

The Mongols were definately NOT Turks. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to know that Genghis united all of the Mongol tribes, Tatar tribes, and even a few Turkic tribes, who would later happily consider themselves to be a proud member of the newly created Mongol Nation.

ALSO, Genghis was not a Turk. And no one can prove otherwise.
Sorry but do you know what Tatar means? or do u acknowledge that Tatar is a different ethnicity from Turks ? Read about Tatar language girl!!!
 
Temujin was half Turk n half Mongol. Actually, those "a few" Turkic tribes was Karluk(Uigur, Uzbek), Kipchak(Kyrgyz, Tatar) and some Oghuz(Turkmen) tribes. Their population was higher than Mongols so there were more Turkic soldiers in Temujin's army ;)
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2007 at 05:53
Originally posted by The_Turks

Originally posted by Penelope

The Mongols were definately NOT Turks. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to know that Genghis united all of the Mongol tribes, Tatar tribes, and even a few Turkic tribes, who would later happily consider themselves to be a proud member of the newly created Mongol Nation.

ALSO, Genghis was not a Turk. And no one can prove otherwise.
Sorry but do you know what Tatar means? or do u acknowledge that Tatar is a different ethnicity from Turks ? Read about Tatar language girl!!!
 
Temujin was half Turk n half Mongol. Actually, those "a few" Turkic tribes was Karluk(Uigur, Uzbek), Kipchak(Kyrgyz, Tatar) and some Oghuz(Turkmen) tribes. Their population was higher than Mongols so there were more Turkic soldiers in Temujin's army ;)
 
Ofcourse, there were many Turks in the Mongol Army, but that doesnt prove that they were related to Mongols. And it definately doesnt prove that Genghis was half Turk. Also, keep in mind that the Mongol people during that period, only followed legitimate Khans of pure blood. For example, when Genghis named Jchi his heir, it created dissension, not only among Genghis' other family members, but more importantly, among the entire Mongol population, becuase of the simple fact that there was a Slight possibility that he was not a pure blood legitimate heir to the Mongol throne. Before Jchi's death, there were huge populations of Mongols, whom were threatening to revolt and claim independance, all becuase of Jchi's supposed "impure" blood. Not to mention emminent civil wars. So to assume that the Mongol people wouldve only followed a pure Mongol, would be a correct assumption.
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  Quote The_Turks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2007 at 06:13
Penelope,
 
You are completely WRONG. Mongol and Turk tiribes were the same in Temujin's times. All of our Khans(Turks' and Mongols') saw all of our tribes as their own society. Therefore when a Turkish boy married a girl from one of Mongol tribes, it was not a problem for their sons to be a Khan of Turks or Mongols. Actually when a great Khan ruled steppes, Turks and Mongols didn't think about his tribe but his POWER. If a Khan was powerful enough all Turks and Mongols followed him. 
 
By the way, pure blood meant ALTAIC blood not only Turkic or Mongolic blood ;)
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2007 at 00:41

Mr. Turk, for you to state that both Mongols and Turks were of the same ethnicity, is very much a fantasy. It isnt true, or provable. And Yes, Genghis was powerful enough to conquer the few Turk tribes. They had no choice but to submit to his authority, as did most of the known world at the time. BUT, that does NOT mean that the Mongol people, wouldve willingly followed a Khan, who was clearly not a full-blood Mongol. They would not have done so.

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  Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2007 at 03:57
Originally posted by Penelope

Also, keep in mind that the Mongol people during that period, only followed legitimate Khans of pure blood. For example, when Genghis named Jchi his heir, it created dissension, not only among Genghis' other family members, but more importantly, among the entire Mongol population, becuase of the simple fact that there was a Slight possibility that he was not a pure blood legitimate heir to the Mongol throne. Before Jchi's death, there were huge populations of Mongols, whom were threatening to revolt and claim independance, all becuase of Jchi's supposed "impure" blood. Not to mention emminent civil wars. So to assume that the Mongol people wouldve only followed a pure Mongol, would be a correct assumption.
 
Jochi arosed suspicion not because of his suspected non-Mongol descent, but because he could not have been the true son of Ghengis Khan.
 
Temujin's wife was captured by an enemy tribe and was raped during her captivity. 9 months after her rescue, Jochi was born.... Temujin was therefore never 100% whose child he really was.
 
Regarding Turkic-Mongol relations in Mongolia, it's true that there was much intermixing because both peoples practiced exogamy - marrying within one's own tribe was considered a taboo - a nomadic custom of ensuring gene exchange. Many Mongol tribes took on Turkic atributes, ands vice versa, making the ethnic boundaries between the 2 less clear.
 
Centuries later, Turkic and Mongol peoples living in the Volga region, like the Tatars, Kalmyks, and Bashkirs have also extensively mixed with ethnic Russians.
 
However, this does not imply at all that the Mongols derived from the Turks. I don't know either language, but linguistic experts uphold that the basic structures of the 2 languages belong to different families.
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  Quote The_Turks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2007 at 06:08
Originally posted by Penelope

Mr. Turk, for you to state that both Mongols and Turks were of the same ethnicity, is very much a fantasy. It isnt true, or provable. And Yes, Genghis was powerful enough to conquer the few Turk tribes. They had no choice but to submit to his authority, as did most of the known world at the time. BUT, that does NOT mean that the Mongol people, wouldve willingly followed a Khan, who was clearly not a full-blood Mongol. They would not have done so.

Are u sure?
 
Istemi Yabgu, Bilge Kagan, Bilge Kul Tigin, Ilteris Kutluk Kagan... They were all Turks and Mongol tribes followed them.
 
As for "pure blood", for example a Kagan married a Chinese princess, their sons couldn't have been a Kagan.  That's TRE but I have never heard that after a Khan married a girl from a different tribe(Mongol or Turk) their sons couldn't have been a Kagan. Can u proof ur ideas?  
 
By the way, Temujin didn't conquer Uigurs, Qarluqs and Kipchaks. They wilingly followed him and according to science Turkic tribes were more peopled than Mongol tribes. If those Turkic tribes didn't follow the Khan, he couldn't have been that much powerful.
 
I can proof my ideas: think about Ilhanli Khanate, Chagatay Khanate and Altinorda Khanate. After Temujin's death  those three empires were TURKIFIED. WHY? Because their population was mostly Turks, because Turks were more PEOPLED than Mongols...
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2007 at 08:11
Originally posted by The_Turks

Originally posted by Penelope

Mr. Turk, for you to state that both Mongols and Turks were of the same ethnicity, is very much a fantasy. It isnt true, or provable. And Yes, Genghis was powerful enough to conquer the few Turk tribes. They had no choice but to submit to his authority, as did most of the known world at the time. BUT, that does NOT mean that the Mongol people, wouldve willingly followed a Khan, who was clearly not a full-blood Mongol. They would not have done so.

Are u sure?
 
Istemi Yabgu, Bilge Kagan, Bilge Kul Tigin, Ilteris Kutluk Kagan... They were all Turks and Mongol tribes followed them.
 
As for "pure blood", for example a Kagan married a Chinese princess, their sons couldn't have been a Kagan.  That's TRE but I have never heard that after a Khan married a girl from a different tribe(Mongol or Turk) their sons couldn't have been a Kagan. Can u proof ur ideas?  
 
By the way, Temujin didn't conquer Uigurs, Qarluqs and Kipchaks. They wilingly followed him and according to science Turkic tribes were more peopled than Mongol tribes. If those Turkic tribes didn't follow the Khan, he couldn't have been that much powerful.
 
I can proof my ideas: think about Ilhanli Khanate, Chagatay Khanate and Altinorda Khanate. After Temujin's death  those three empires were TURKIFIED. WHY? Because their population was mostly Turks, because Turks were more PEOPLED than Mongols...
 
 
 
 
 
None of the turks you have mentioned, were rulers of the unified Mongol Empire. They were not pure blood descendants of Genghis, which means that they could never become the Great Khan. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to understand that. Also, once again, just becuase the turks were numerous, does not mean that they were RELATED to Mongols. Do some more research sweety.
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