Oppression of American women

Originally posted by Omar Its rather worrysome the amount of violence and disrespect shown towards women in certain countries. Do you think its a trend that the status and respect shown to women in western countries is on a downward spiral?

I think it is probably improving over time. We must understand that women have always suffered abuse and domestic violence throughout history. In the role of the Roman pater familia, men could kill their wives legally. Then came rule of thumb - no hitting a woman with anything thicker than your thumb. Today the law outright does not permit this type of violence.

If you can provide longitudinal data showing domestic violence over time in the USA, then we know if things are getting worse or better. Chances are it is getting better, but abuse is more often reported and people take more notice than in say the 1950s.

Also, let's not forget that just because some countries report low domestic violence figures, that doesn't mean domestic violence is low. Sometimes it is such a problem that women keep quiet after being abused and try to hide it. In the USA, which puts substantial resources into police and law and order institutions, the avenues to report domestic violence are far greater than in a tribal society, for example.

Also, I'm not sure the USA's domestic violence figures are consistent with those of many other Western nations.

Also, compared to many countries I do believe it is better. Honour killings, acid throwing, female infanticide and the like are serious problems in non-Western societies. While a woman being slapped or hit is terrible, such an assault is rather slight compared to the abuses I just mentioned.

Violence against women has always been with us, unfortunately. But I think in the Western world it is not at the extreme in severity of attack nor in society's willingness to ignore it compared to the rest of the globe.

Also, let's not forget that just because some countries report low domestic violence figures, that doesn't mean domestic violence is low. Sometimes it is such a problem that women keep quiet after being abused and try to hide it. In the USA, which puts substantial resources into police and law and order institutions, the avenues to report domestic violence are far greater than in a tribal society, for example.

One of the statistics is 85-95% of domestic violence victims are women. Ignoring the fact thats a huge margin of error this is probably because men don't report it if they get hit by their wifes. They don't even see it as a crime.

However I think reporting, preventing, and punishing domestic violence in a tribal society is leaps and bound ahead of civilised (literal meaning) ones. In a tribal society, if a man hits his wife, and his wife tells her brother, then her brothers, father, cousins, and their friends are going to come knocking on you door shortly afterwards. The bonds of family relationships protect women in those societies.

In western societies where the bonds of family are very weak, women do not have that protective mechanism. They only have the law which is no where near as effective.

Aelfgifu, be sure It is a good solution(I saw it before). If a moron try to hit my brother, I will use it too..

But all in all, how is the life of your (hypothetical) sister going to improve by beating up her husband?

Originally posted by Omar However I think reporting, preventing, and punishing domestic violence in a tribal society is leaps and bound ahead of civilised (literal meaning) ones. In a tribal society, if a man hits his wife, and his wife tells her brother, then her brothers, father, cousins, and their friends are going to come knocking on you door shortly afterwards. The bonds of family relationships protect women in those societies. In western societies where the bonds of family are very weak, women do not have that protective mechanism. They only have the law which is no where near as effective.

I am inclined to disagree. Let's think systematically about the conditions of a woman  central Asia, then of a woman in Australia - as two examples. I wish I knew more about the situation in America, from what I know I would assume it is similar to Australia except with more of an honour culture, and higher overall crime and poverty rates (hence bad for domestic violence).

Put yourself in the position of a central Asian woman. You probably received little education and were probably married at a young age to someone who suited your family's taste, already this is not going to be helpful. The strong presence of an honour culture and the need for the head of the family (your husband) to appear in charge, means that your obediance to his will is required. The last thing he needs is to be seen as unable to control his wife. This is also bad.
There is a strong possibility that you live in an isolated home being responsible for your family's own patch of agriculture or herding - so running to relatives is hardly an option. This is compounded by very limited and inefficient means of transportation and communication in your area. So living in this type of isolation, your husband may hit you and you may not even know it is unusual or wrong because you have no one to compare with. And anyway, your father used to hit you as a child when you were naughty, so this is just a continuation.
Plus, there may be some religious reference to a man hitting his wife that your husband can point out to you, or a religious inscription which tells wives to be obedient. A theologian may be able to carefully pick through mounds of texts to discover the true essence of this religious inscription, but of course you are a woman of limited education and exposure to the wider world. Now there is a religious command that you be obedient, that you don't complain, and that you honour your husband. So it gets worse.
You feel bad your husband hits you, but he has so much control over you. He threatens to harm the children if you speak out. Also, he controls practically all your household wealth. If he left, you would be destitute. In such a tribal place, the idea of strolling down to the police station is hardly practical. Firstly, they have better things to deal with, there is no guarantee they would even consider helping you. The country is poor, there are lots of problems, police numbers are low and they aren't particularly sensitive to a domestic spat when they have drug, murder and thieving issues to attend to.
Even if you could go to your family, there is no total guarantee they will exact revenge on your husband. Your own family may fear retribution from his family if they attacked him (your husband's family may be far more powerful and influential, afterall). And what if your family questions your husband, and he puts a clever spin on things and convinces them you are exaggerating? If your husband finds out you went behind his back to complain to your family he may want revenge, and do it in such a way that it leaves no marks for you to show your family (yes, there are ways of inflicting awful pain without leaving evidence). And say your family does take revenge, does that solve the problem? No, if he survives there will always be an uneasy, disfunctional and distrustful relationship between you two which will manifest itself in a completely unworkable marriage. And if they kill him - well that scenario is obviously awful.

Let's compare to a typical liberal/democratic society. Women are usually educated for longer, marry later, and marry who they want of their own personal preference rather than anyone else's - all very good things to begin with.
Because of the highly urbanised nature of society, people tend to be in very regular contact with one another and gain an understanding of common social norms. Women in the modern period in particular play an ever increasing role out and about in society, receiving almost the same education, salary for work produced and opportunity to work as men do.
While some traditional religions stress the need to make a marriage work, and some outright forbid divorce such as Catholicism, religious law has a small influence compared to how it worked traditionally. In such a secular state, secular law provides women the avenue to divorce. And if the husband abuses the wife either physically or psychologically (e.g. adultery) you can bet she will get a privileged share of the joint wealth and also custody of the children (though she almost always gets that in any divorce).
Honour culture tends not to be such an issue. While in the USA I would say this is more an issue than Australia, divorce and marriage dysfunction are so openly portrayed in the media and television that husbands are less inclined to become fearful and embarassed about whether people judge him for inability to control his wife - and resort to extreme measures to ensure that control.
Then there is the issue of welfare. A women in a liberal/democratic state can rely on the state to support her in the instance of being cut off from her husband's household finances. This is an incentive not to put up with abuse. In a traditional patriarchal society, she needs to be lucky enough to have someone else to fall back on - many women in these poorer nations do not.
Then there is the legal system of the liberal democratic state. It tends to make extensive provision for the welfare of victims of abuse. AVOs can be taken out by abused women preventing husbands from coming near them or even contacting them. A well staffed police force, with specific domestic violence units, is tailored to deal with incidents of spousal abuse. Due to the typically lower levels of corruption in liberal democratic states (see the global index on public service honesty and corruption), there is also a much greater chance the legal system will represent your rights fairly than in a state where judicial corruption allows the wealthier party to get off.

I have been unlucky to actually observe indepth domestic violence proceedings in one such liberal democratic state and I will relate what I observed as I think it serves as  good example. In this particular instance, both the man and woman were of low socio-economic status but the man had been educated up to age 16 and the woman up to age 17. This event occurred in Australia, and no doubt Omar will know what I am talking about when I refer to the "Violence against women - Australia says NO" campaign. This was a television campaign launched in recent years, and what better proof that our fine liberal democratic institutions are working than the government stepping in to clearly leave the public in no uncertain terms about how the law views domestic violence against women.

After the assault occurred, the police were immediately called and turned up within 20 minutes. The woman in question made a complaint to a police unit which was specially trained in dealing with victims of domestic violence. Counselling was provided and a temporary AVO immediately issued until the court appearance could be made so a magistrate could make a longer term ruling. The abuser had fled and the injuries were not severe enough to warrant the police mobilising huge resources to hunt him down (as is typically the case in domestic violence), but the AVO was communicated to him and it was made clear he would be thrown in jail should he come anywhere near the victim.

The police gave their continued support throughout the entire process, from the day of the incident right through until the judge ordered a more permanent AVO. So this case is an example of how a woman of below average education (for her nation), with no family in Australia other than her children, living at the bottom end of the socio-economic scale was afforded full protection and support by the state. It is an impressive example of how one of society's least powerful individuals can rely on an empowered, well resourced and well trained legal system to protect her rights. And we are so very lucky to live in a nation with such a system.

I do wonder how a woman of below average education and no family support in a country with poor police resources and a strong patriarchal honour culture manages to ensure her rights from the moment abuse occurs.


Edited by Constantine XI - 18-Jun-2007 at 09:02

I'm afraid to say that I agree with Omar


Family (and entourage) is the best way to prevent domestic assaults.

The problem is that it doesn't work very well. Some efforts should be made to change mentalities, but it is difficult to vote a law changing mentalities.

And that is why the state matters, it can tackle proxies such as alcoholism,  drug addiction, and beyond unemployment, mental illness treatment, etc. It can also provide means for women to easily leave a violent partner. Finally, the family is not always there and the police may seem as a bit too drastic so a good information about NGOs and other such stuff could also be useful.

What do you think should be done?

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim Spoken like a true westerner. If my family kept out of my domestic problems I'd be seriously worried they didn't love me. Actually when I met my ex-girlfriends dad I expected him to interogate me, yell at me a bit, you know like fathers who love their kids do. When he didn't, and just accepted his daughters decision, I was seriously put off and lost a lot of respect for him.

This is the funniest thing I ever heard. I'll remember to mistreat you a lot if you should ever speak to one of my family members, if it pleases you. Seriously though, if I was in your place and I experienced my father-in-law interrogating (!) and yelling at me, not only would I immediately assume he disliked me (and that he was a bit nutty), I'd also feel quite insulted as it would seem he believed himself in a position where he could talk down to me. My respect for him certainly wouldn't rise.

On a more everyday basis family members "meddling" in each others' affairs can be both negative and positive; encouragements and advice are always welcome, but when one family member outsteps his/her boundaries by telling another family member (adult, of course) what he/she can or cannot do with his/her life, that's when it gets unpleasant.

Edited by Reginmund - 19-Jun-2007 at 14:42

Originally posted by Mortaza But all in all, how is the life of your (hypothetical) sister going to improve by beating up her husband?   Maybe, He will learn beating is a bad thing? or She is not unprotected and He cannot abuse her as he want?

My suggestion to Omar would be becoming more of his  own rather that allowing the ideas of other to govern his emotions.

Dipo, I have at least three different cultures in my mums side of the family alone. No, make that 4 I forgot the Latvians. Another 2 on my dads side, and I can't count the number I have to deal with in any typical day. I change what I consider a social norm 2-3 times a day depending on what company I am in.
If I allowed others ideas to govern my emotions I'd be a very confused person. In this case, her dad appeared uncaring even for your typical anglo.