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The Abrahamic Prometheus

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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Abrahamic Prometheus
    Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 19:05
For your first answer to me, it's good to know you don't jump around, but does that mean you take it literally like many Evangelicals?
Firstly, all the stories in genesis before Abraham are lessons in morality. No actual human beings were harmed in the actual story.
Does it say that in the bible, or are you assuming thats what God had written for us? Because there are alot more arguements for it by other christians.
Most people would call that entrapment, but God's actions weren't really a "punishment". All that happened was they were banished from the garden and told they would die. What this means is that now they had the ability to work on their own, without having to rely on God to provide everything, and no longer being innocent they would now be able to have children, which I think is the main reason for banning from the garden since the garden contained the tree of life, and Billions of immortal people in the world does not sound like a good idea.
So he was a indian giver? He allowed them to be immortal and innocent without thinking of evil and cruelty, and took it away from them for doing something he knew was bound to happen.
It's not really a lesson on not what to do, he could have just kept us inncent. He could have just given us the apple, told us we'd live out side his beautiful garden and said we were mortal. If he did it from the beginning then we'd just have the human nature we have now.
 
And about Billions of people. We're talking about a almighty god who set the laws of the Universe. If he was taking care of us like you said, then I'm sure he could have easily found away to fit everyone in.
 
Also, God from the moment of creation knew that their disobedience would finally be paid for by himself, by Jesus dying on the cross, so it's a no harm no foul situation.
If so, why not make us back to what we orginally were? And why does the power of "Sinning" effect him so much that he HAS to have his son die for us?He could build the world in 7 days, but it takes thousands of years(assuming your not a 6000yrs earth believer) to cure Humanities' sin?

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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2007 at 02:59

For your first answer to me, it's good to know you don't jump around, but does that mean you take it literally like many Evangelicals?


Of course not to understand the Bible you can't isolate separate parts, you have to grasp the whole thing to understand it.


Does it say that in the bible, or are you assuming thats what God had written for us? Because there are alot more arguements for it by other christians.


It does not say that in the Bible but evidence suggests that the early Biblical patriarchs are merely extensions of Mesopotamian legends that were popularized in other religious traditions.

It is foolish to overlook traditional folklore and to say that the Bible's events actually happened whereas the other myths didn't, it is much simpler to conclude that all of those stories were morality lessons much like fairy tales in our modern mythos. The Bible only begins to get into actually history with Abraham, as it correctly describes peoples and events that are known to exist in the historical record.


It's not really a lesson on not what to do, he could have just kept us inncent. He could have just given us the apple, told us we'd live out side his beautiful garden and said we were mortal. If he did it from the beginning then we'd just have the human nature we have now.


Would we have the human nature we have now? God could cleanse the world of suffering, could make it so that all of our wishes came true, he could rule over us in a palace made of solid gold and no one would rebel. That is the world we would live in if God just gave Adam and Eve the apple. And I doubt that we would have the same human nature.

God has chosen to let us be held responsible for our own actions. It's like a parent who lets their kid drive his car to the party, of course the dad could drive the kid to the party himself, but in order to teach a lesson and show faith in his child he gives the kid the keys. Now the kid can go to the party have a good time and come home, he could also get drunk and crash into a ditch. God lets us find our own way because he has faith in humanity, that we will supersede our animal impulses and become truly human.

You can't be given humanity, it's something that you have to earn on your own.


If so, why not make us back to what we orginally were?


Because innocence does not make us more human, only the discovery of God's mysteries can do that. God wants us to know the true nature of things, so that we can not choose wrong answers.


And why does the power of "Sinning" effect him so much that he HAS to have his son die for us?


Sinning effects God because it is a separation of man from God. God tells us what is expected from us, so that we may become perfect with God. To stray from that path means that we have gone farther from God and thus farther from realizing our full potential. God had to send his son to die for us because our sin carried us so far away from God's kingdom that only God himself could bring us back on the right path by an act of pure love where our God is willing to humiliate himself for his chosen creatures and show that he alone suffers our burden and punishment for our sins.


He could build the world in 7 days, but it takes thousands of years(assuming your not a 6000yrs earth believer) to cure Humanities' sin?


It took an instant to cure Humanities sin, God is beyond all time it is merely our perception that is flawed. When you consider infinity time is inconsequential.

And seven days isn't literal it's symbolic.
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jul-2007 at 21:53

Ah Prometheus, promises! What promise did Prometheus bring only to be forever punished by his mortal parts, by the birds of vengeance that picked at his liver? He brought fire and with fire people could cook and get better food and have bigger families and then proceed to overpopulate the planet. He brought fire by which man could work metals, plunder the earth for more. With fire man could make swords and with swords man could kill and make war and make even bigger machines of war. With fire man could smelt gold and create objects that people still kill everyday for!  

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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 00:53
Originally posted by Constantine XI


But what do you think of the idea that Prometheus did not die with the end of Olympian worship. That instead, he was transformed into yet another figure with which the Abrahamic religions are very familiar. I am speaking, of course, about Lucifer. Yes, Beelzebub, Satan and all the rest of his glitsy titles represent a figure with a great deal in common with our unfortunate fire giving hero.
There is a connection, the Gnostic take on genesis is a very interesting version of the story.  It turns it upside down and sees the serpent as the good guy, like a prophet, and God is really just a jealous lower god (not the Godhead) that wants to deny humans true knowledge and wisdom.

 IIRC Lucifer is originally Babylonian and not evil at all, and is very close to Prometheus while the others are different. Satan would come from Seth which originally wasn't a evil fellow but a lying trickster type that gets up to no good, quite similar with other pagan gods that are bad (not evil). The black and white - good and evil dichotomy seems to be a Iranian development, ahriman vs ahura. It is quite probably that this influence came to the Semites via Babylonia > Abraham, with the Babylonian influence reinforced by the Jewish captivity there later on.

All of those names mentioned became mixed up into a composite form, the christian devil.


Edited by Leonidas - 28-Jul-2007 at 00:55
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 01:58
Very well put Leonidas! Over the ages a confusion of names has taken place. 
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 03:45
Originally posted by Sparten

Prometheus helped humanity, while Satan led man astray.


Well, if Satan were transformed into a syncretic allegory of Prometheus (from his previous role as God's prosecutor) then of course he would be painted as an enemy of man - all part of the anti-Hellenism of the era. Seems he also embodies a few other Greek figures, like Pan.
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 08:32
It all goes a lot deeper of course. The god of an enemy nation could be named as the god of things evil and so the string of names for the evil one grew. Modern versions of the Bible have now given up on the ancient game of name calling and just say evil one.
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 10:31
Originally posted by elenos

Very well put Leonidas! Over the ages a confusion of names has taken place. 
thanks elenos.Smile

I was a bit ahead of myself in the last post. Lucifer of Babylon was called another name "Tammuz" and my connection to him was automatically done under theosophist influence. That may be wrong as Ishtar (Morning star ) the female version of Lucifer was connected to him in a certain legend. Tammuz seems more like Adonis, Osiris and maybe Mithra, a 'vegetational' god that dies and is born again. The legend of the descent of Ishtar to find Tammuz is similar to Demeter more so with Isis-Osisris. These myth explain, amongst other things, the season and life-death cycle.

Lucifer's transformation from the Morning star to the fallen angel is what i should be commenting on. The fallen angels of Jewish myth, what Satan is based on in the Christian myth is very much a Prometheus like story.

I might of quoted this elsewhere here long time ago, but i think it very relevant to the thread and therefore I will take time in typing out large sections. This is the description of why and how the fallen angels did what they did according to the Book of Enoch (or 1 Enoch). Translated from the Ethiopic text by R.H Charles D.Litt


1. And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. 2. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children' . 3. And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed, and i alone shall pay the penalty of great sin'. 4. And the all answered  him and said: 'let us all swear and oath, and blind ourselves by mutual imprecations not to abandon this plan but do thing thing.' 5. Then they swear they all together and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. 6. And they were in all two hundred; who descended [in the days] of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they call it Mount Hermon, because they swore and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it.
chapter 6 (it goes on to list the leading angels)

Chapter 7

1. And all the others together with them took unto them wives, and each chose for himself one, and the began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. 2. And they became pregnant, and they bare great Giants whose height was three thousand ells: 3.Who consumed all acquisitions of men. And men could no longer sustain them, 4. The Giants turn against them and devoured mankind.

Chapter 8

1. And Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metal <of the earth> and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antinomy, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all coloring tinctures. 2.  And there rose much godlessness, and they committed fornification, and they were lead astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. 3.Semjaza taught enchantments, and root cuttings, Armaros the resolving of enchantments, Baraqijil (taught) astrology, Kokabel the constellations, Ezeqeel the knowledge of the clouds, <Araquiel the signs of the earth, Shamsiel the signs of the sun>, and Sariel the course of the moon. 4. And the men perished, they cried and their cry went to heaven..

Chapter 9
6. Thou seest what Azazel has done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which men were striving to learn: 7. And Semjaza , to whom Thou hast given authority to rule over his associates.


This is all  fragmentary and suggests that two myths are combined in this myth within this book.  Semjaza sometimes is  replaced by Azazel. Both seem to be leaders in their own cycle of myths and there are two things going on, the birth of theses terrible giants (another thread- nephalim) but more importantly for this thread, the teaching of men and women of sciences and agriculture (civilization it seems?). Raphael goes onto defeat Azazel as Michael defeats Semjaza.




Edited by Leonidas - 28-Jul-2007 at 11:14
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 12:11

From mans propective, Prometheus's actions had a positive effect, while Satan's had a negetive effect. The basis of the story is also different, in the former you have a situation of, "its a hard world, but Prometheus made it easier", in the second "its a hard world, we are here thanks to Satan, who incidentally  is trying his damnest to make it harder". One is seen as an agent of good, one as a cause of disaster.

The propsective in both cases is man, not the deitys.


Edited by Sparten - 28-Jul-2007 at 12:12
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 14:54
Originally posted by Sparten

From mans propective, Prometheus's actions had a positive effect, while Satan's had a negetive effect. The basis of the story is also different, in the former you have a situation of, "its a hard world, but Prometheus made it easier", in the second "its a hard world, we are here thanks to Satan, who incidentally is trying his damnest to make it harder". One is seen as an agent of good, one as a cause of disaster.


The propsective in both cases is man, not the deitys.


Again, so what? That doesn't disprove the connection at all - in fact, it strengthens it. We know for a fact that elements of Satan were adapted from other European deities like Pan and Cerumnos, who were viewed favourably - but transformed into enemies of mankind in the figure of Satan.

The whole point of allowing syncretism to influence views on Satan was to demonize foreign gods.
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jul-2007 at 15:09
Leonidas wrote; "Tammuz seems more like Adonis, Osiris and maybe Mithra, a 'vegetational' god that dies and is born again."

Oh no, my friend, I will cheerfully invalidate you there! Mithra was a constellation god based on the stars. As the son of God, he came to earth born of a rock or born of a virgin, to slay the proud bull so the earth may be saved. He then returned to (the) heaven(s). The twelve animal signs associated with him refer to the zodiac. in fact the word zodiac means circle of animals. The association you refer to means how they associated the stars with yearly agricultural cycles. The reference to him in Wiki is only tiny bits and pieces of the story.


Edited by elenos - 28-Jul-2007 at 15:10
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jul-2007 at 00:12
Originally posted by Sparten

From mans propective, Prometheus's actions had a positive effect, while Satan's had a negetive effect. The basis of the story is also different, in the former you have a situation of, "its a hard world, but Prometheus made it easier", in the second "its a hard world, we are here thanks to Satan, who incidentally  is trying his damnest to make it harder". One is seen as an agent of good, one as a cause of disaster.

The birth of the giants, ok bad, but also unintentional.  Teaching us what seems to have delivered us out of caves,  like metallurgy and agriculture would be good. More comprehensive than fire alone.

The story i quoted is one of the earliest about the fallen angels in jewish mythology that I have come across. The story changes in later books for example, putting blame on the females for seducing the angels with their make up. While here it was the angels that taught them how to. This points to a shift in attitude within the religion over time, in this example, the lowering of women into the position of blame.


Oh no, my friend, I will cheerfully invalidate you there! Mithra was a constellation god based on the stars.
yet in Armenia we reborn every year. This god is quite wide spread and diverse. He would of taken many different attributes in the countries he spread to, the constellations being one very important one.  Anyway hence my 'maybe' passing mention.Wink


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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jul-2007 at 02:35

He was a big maybe! It did marry a lot of factors that had been separate beforehand and world religion as a whole became more organized. It was interesting in that it took in Indian beliefs as well. We could suspect Alexander as being responsible, for he conquered Persia and marched on India. As a synchronistic religion this worship was about as realistic as a loaf of sliced bread wrapped in plastic, it was just too clever by half to be an organically grown religion and used lavish dollops of Greek logic.

Mithra was not so much referred to as a god, but a friend on earth from above. He also was looked upon as a sort of Prometheus, as a sun god he gave the world the gift of fire. His worship purified and freed the devotee from sin and disease.

With this forerunner and rival of early Christianity we deserve to know more, but the gospels of Mithra became destroyed or absorbed into the church triumphant. The obvious references this light of the world come to earth to live among us are the three wise men from the east who said they were following his (Jesuss) star. Christ directly refers to this way when he told of killing the prophets between temple and alter, the way Zoroaster (the prophet of the East) died, nobody else had the same story.

The biggest failure of the Mithra religion was to not allow a major place for women and so Christianity became their choice of worship. This is despite the largest temple with a Mithra connection dates from 200 BC in western Iran and is dedicated to "Anahita, the Immaculate Virgin Mother of the Lord Mithras".

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