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The Sultan still in the house?

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Sultan still in the house?
    Posted: 17-Dec-2005 at 04:11

Aside of that religous factor, how exactly is a nation that lead a large part of the Muslim world better of as a country that seeks to belong to those who reject it?

Not  excatly true, sure our elits and goverment(Even Erdogan aim is not EU  but  he need it) want  to be European, but  this  is not true for people.(I think what we want is  economical and political benefit from  EU, we dont interest much with their culture. Most of our people wont care  If he called European or not, except elits.)

Just think  about Turkey rejection of USA soldier for attacking Iraq. That decision  is mainly emotional, It harmed my country benefit.

well It looks like you are right. Decline of  ottomans  harmed muslim  much.

 

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  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2005 at 07:53

I think to answer the question of 'If the Sultan was still in the house' we must look at the trends for the Ottoman court at the time of the end of their dynasty.

The Ottoman Sultans were already feeling and in many ways implementing westernisation into the Ottoman empire. So if this trend was to continue, i would have presumed that the Ottoman Empire of 2005 may have been much like modern day Lebanon. Westernisation with a more of an Middle Eastern and Islamic influence then today. Palestine for sure would not be in its current mess as would the ME as a whole.

However the leadership may have been like the one of Syria. The Sultan for sure would have used the Caliphate as a shield, every time he came under attack for his decisions. As their faith in Islam was already in decline.

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  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2005 at 13:22
This is becoming a really interesting discussion!  Hamoudeh and OSMANLI - the points you've raised are thought-provoking.

My impression is, Had the Ottoman Empire survived into the 21st Century, the role of the Imperial House wouldn't have differed from that of the British Royal Family; a symbolic presence only good for tourism.  But I may be wrong.

Did any of the scattered descendants of the Ottoman rulers write their memoirs, apart from Kenize Mourad?

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  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2005 at 09:13
Originally posted by Mira

Did any of the scattered descendants of the Ottoman rulers write their memoirs, apart from Kenize Mourad?



Seems like nobody knows the answer!

Well, yes .. And a biography of the Imperial Head of the State is being written, too.
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  Quote bodrum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 16:36
I can't realise that we have always someones who prefer to go back to Ottoman Empire time. That was the Empire of a family and not the empire of a nation. All other empires are called with the names of their nations. But the empire of istanbul was only a monarchie. I am not a member of this family. I am a Turkish citizen. I DON'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT THIS FAMILY, OK?
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 17:42

They're being given back citizenship and the right to return today as they are no longer a pollitical threat.

The Royal Family in England are a great tourist attraction.
 
Turkey should bring back the Ottoman Family, let the
 work as some sort of good-will ambassadors and  cultrual conoisseiurs, its a big money-maker, countries with figure-head monarchies make big bucks just by havin them as a figure-head.
 
 
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  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Oct-2006 at 19:23
Bulldog, even you bring them back dont expect there will be another Mehmed the conquerer, Suleiman the magnificent or II Abdulhamid. A short information to you if you dont mind, many of them dont even know how to speak Turkish, simply they lost their Turkish herritage. Today they only have the "name" of it and nothing else from the past...

And some respected members of Ottoman family do not even want to speak about Ottoman empire because it damages todays Turkey's regime and what was been done 83 years ago.
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  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 01:09
A figure head monarch would have hardly made any difference. 
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 08:42
Exactly Vivek, I can't believe some people are still touchy over this subject.

The Ottoman's who were extradited didn't have a bad word said aginst "AtaTurk", they were full supporters of what their general had achieved and accepted that the Ottoman Sultanate had made mistakes.

Today, they pose absolutely no threat and have no intentions of being one, they could be a figure-head, a great money-spinner guys common its a tourist attraction.    
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  Quote Attila2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 23:23

Well guys and gals,if Turkey had brought back the monarch,it would be a funny entertainment for tourists,sooooo funny yet soooo disgracing,for the tourists would be seing a half-shaved "kavuk" and "kaftan" wearing guy with a hell load of girls from his harem,making love on thier flying carpets LOL

 
aahhh,lets forget that silly joke...(BTW the Ottomans have NEVER BEEN TURKISH!,the ottomans discriminated the muslims other than turks positively,while always disgracing Turks,calling us "Trk-i biidrak" -it is arabic,meaning stupid turks-and for me, they deserved what they faced.)
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  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 01:45
Originally posted by Attila2

"Trk-i biidrak" -it is arabic,meaning stupid turks-and for me, they deserved what they faced.)
I have no clue what is turki biidrak in Arabic. Are you sure it is Arabic?
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 15:02
Atilla2
Well guys and gals,if Turkey had brought back the monarch,it would be a funny entertainment for tourists,sooooo funny yet soooo disgracing,for the tourists would be seing a half-shaved "kavuk" and "kaftan" wearing guy with a hell load of girls from his harem,making love on thier flying carpets LOL
 
Why disgracing? people who visit Turkey want to see its culture, its dress and clothes styles, its famous carpets, the Palace's, the Kaftans, the Orient spices, wealth and style.
 
They don't visit to see, some lost people tripping over themselves willing to do anything to be accepted as "Western", trying to hide away anything remotely Turkic-Islamic etc etc
 
People don't want to see something they can see in their own country in the West, what's the point of travelling to Turkey if you are ashamed and try to hide everything on offer.
 
Why do to Istanbul? hmmm let's think,
 
Shopping! the Grand Bazaar, Egyption Bazaar, Metalworkers Bazaar, Turkish Carpet sellers, Jewellers, HandiCrafts, everything can be found and bartered over etc etc
 
 
Religous sites! Blue Mosque, Aya Sofya, Suleymaniye, St.Irene, Yeni-Mosque, RustemPasha, Bayazit Mosque, Fatih Mosque, Eyup Mosque and area resting place of Ebu-Esari and many religous artifacts, Ahrida Synagogue (opened for Al-Andaluscian Jews), Hemdat Synagogue, Monastries in the nearby Islands and so on.............
 
Historic Sites! Topkapi Palace, Galata Tower, KizKulesi(Maiden's tower) Bayazid Tower, Underground Cisterns, the Old City Walls and Towers, the grand fountains, Kiosks, Ottoman houses, Konaks, Yali's on the Bosphoros, TURKISH BATHS! etc etc etc
 
The FOOD! Fresh Fish from the Marmara Sea, trying to eat like Sultans, Turkish Delight, Turkish Coffee and everything else that makes Turkish Cuisine among the Top 3 in the world.
 
The Culture! From music, to bellydancing, to Tea-houses, to Coffee-houses, to Folk Music nights, Mehter Bands in the Blue Mosque Square, Whirling Dervisher nights, Boutique hotels in the historic quarters, hospitallity, bartering, some of that Spice of the Orient.
 
etc etc etc
 
These are the ATTRACTIONS of Istanbul, they're not disgracefull they're beutiful.
 
Atilla
aahhh,lets forget that silly joke...(BTW the Ottomans have NEVER BEEN TURKISH!,the ottomans discriminated the muslims other than turks positively,while always disgracing Turks,calling us "Trk-i biidrak" -it is arabic,meaning stupid turks-and for me, they deserved what they faced.)
 
There is alot of interest in Turkey regarding their Ottoman forefathers, unfortunately some sad people are petrified of this and have began a campaign of claiming Ottomans wern't TurksLOL
 
Yes they were Turks, as we all know from the Kayi branch of the Oghuz. They kept a paternal line all the way through, it was father that determined your nation among that culture. Some think Hurrem Sultan wife of Suleyman was "Russian" but she was a Kipchak Turk.
 
Also Ottoman state wasn't solely "Turk", there were many ethnics, they were also given positions of power and regional rule.
 
After Timur's victory which was due to the Turkmen tribes the Ottomans drastically changed their policy and realised that the Turk tribes were a back-bone of the state and treated them well.


Edited by Bulldog - 12-Oct-2006 at 15:03
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 15:20
I have no clue what is turki biidrak in Arabic. Are you sure it is Arabic?
 
 
haha it is not arabic.  Infact It is ottomanish, ottomans sometimes called turks as turki biidrak.(Turk who understand nothing.)
 
Of course these turks were alevis. That is why he is saying, Ottomans were not Turks.
 
By the way, Infact we have still some Turki biidraks.
 
Infact I heard, some ottoman diplomats were realy angry when europeans called them as Turks, but They generally accepted themself as Turk.
 
 
 


Edited by Mortaza - 12-Oct-2006 at 15:22
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  Quote Attila2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Oct-2006 at 19:45
Originally posted by Bulldog

Atilla2
Well guys and gals,if Turkey had brought back the monarch,it would be a funny entertainment for tourists,sooooo funny yet soooo disgracing,for the tourists would be seing a half-shaved "kavuk" and "kaftan" wearing guy with a hell load of girls from his harem,making love on thier flying carpets LOL
 
Why disgracing? people who visit Turkey want to see its culture, its dress and clothes styles, its famous carpets, the Palace's, the Kaftans, the Orient spices, wealth and style.
 
They don't visit to see, some lost people tripping over themselves willing to do anything to be accepted as "Western", trying to hide away anything remotely Turkic-Islamic etc etc
 
People don't want to see something they can see in their own country in the West, what's the point of travelling to Turkey if you are ashamed and try to hide everything on offer.
 
Why do to Istanbul? hmmm let's think,
 
Shopping! the Grand Bazaar, Egyption Bazaar, Metalworkers Bazaar, Turkish Carpet sellers, Jewellers, HandiCrafts, everything can be found and bartered over etc etc
 
 
Religous sites! Blue Mosque, Aya Sofya, Suleymaniye, St.Irene, Yeni-Mosque, RustemPasha, Bayazit Mosque, Fatih Mosque, Eyup Mosque and area resting place of Ebu-Esari and many religous artifacts, Ahrida Synagogue (opened for Al-Andaluscian Jews), Hemdat Synagogue, Monastries in the nearby Islands and so on.............
 
Historic Sites! Topkapi Palace, Galata Tower, KizKulesi(Maiden's tower) Bayazid Tower, Underground Cisterns, the Old City Walls and Towers, the grand fountains, Kiosks, Ottoman houses, Konaks, Yali's on the Bosphoros, TURKISH BATHS! etc etc etc
 
The FOOD! Fresh Fish from the Marmara Sea, trying to eat like Sultans, Turkish Delight, Turkish Coffee and everything else that makes Turkish Cuisine among the Top 3 in the world.
 
The Culture! From music, to bellydancing, to Tea-houses, to Coffee-houses, to Folk Music nights, Mehter Bands in the Blue Mosque Square, Whirling Dervisher nights, Boutique hotels in the historic quarters, hospitallity, bartering, some of that Spice of the Orient.
 
etc etc etc
 
These are the ATTRACTIONS of Istanbul, they're not disgracefull they're beutiful.
 
Atilla
aahhh,lets forget that silly joke...(BTW the Ottomans have NEVER BEEN TURKISH!,the ottomans discriminated the muslims other than turks positively,while always disgracing Turks,calling us "Trk-i biidrak" -it is arabic,meaning stupid turks-and for me, they deserved what they faced.)
 
There is alot of interest in Turkey regarding their Ottoman forefathers, unfortunately some sad people are petrified of this and have began a campaign of claiming Ottomans wern't TurksLOL
 
Yes they were Turks, as we all know from the Kayi branch of the Oghuz. They kept a paternal line all the way through, it was father that determined your nation among that culture. Some think Hurrem Sultan wife of Suleyman was "Russian" but she was a Kipchak Turk.
 
Also Ottoman state wasn't solely "Turk", there were many ethnics, they were also given positions of power and regional rule.
 
After Timur's victory which was due to the Turkmen tribes the Ottomans drastically changed their policy and realised that the Turk tribes were a back-bone of the state and treated them well.
 
the ottomans began to insult the turks after Yavuz Sultan Selim's death.
oh BTW,I am not trying to hide anything,but trying to recover the things which Ottomans hide,like turkic identity you got what I mean? Wink Oh and I never try to imply smth like westernisation.Ottmans may have tried to westernise the Turks,I really dont care.They still buried our identity.Actually I am against westernisation or easternisation.I am a Turk,and I want to live like a Turk,and who opresses me because of this,I,naturally,hate them.


Edited by Attila2 - 12-Oct-2006 at 19:54
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 12:43
Atilla
the ottomans began to insult the turks after Yavuz Sultan Selim's death.
oh BTW,I am not trying to hide anything,but trying to recover the things which Ottomans hide,like turkic identity you got what I mean? Oh and I never try to imply smth like westernisation.Ottmans may have tried to westernise the Turks,I really dont care.They still buried our identity.Actually I am against westernisation or easternisation.I am a Turk,and I want to live like a Turk,and who opresses me because of this,I,naturally,hate them.


Really, you should study Ottoman history in more detail.

So you claim Suleyman the Magnificent insulted Turks, the guy who earned Turks respect from all over and even the Europeans so impressed by him created the term, "GRAND TURK". Sultan Ahmed I patron of the SultanAhmed Mosque-Blue Mosque a world famous architectural building. Genc Osman who promoted Turkic culture, Murat IV.....

Ottomans spread the Turkish language to three continants, created a great world civillisation, had a very advanced Justic system etc etc

Where do you get these weird ideas from, Ottomans elevated the status of Turks, look at the architectural treasures, the grand culture, cuisine, music, ideals of morals etc etc all which are accepted as Turkish today are also thanks to the Ottomans.

You may personally not like them, that's your views but there is no need to lie about them or downplay their achievements.
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  Quote Attila2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 13:43
I am not lying about anything,if you think I am,just look at the ottoman clothes and music,and tell me if you can see any turkic elements.
oh btw,Ottomans spread OTTOMAN language(which is a mixture of arabic-persian vocabulary and grammar on turkish word order),not Turkish.
 
And tell me whether ottomans called themselves turk or not
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  Quote Attila2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 13:48
oh btw,dont forget the ottoman massacres on YORUK turkmens(because they insisted to continue their nomadic life and Turkoman language)
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 14:02
It is interesting, ottomans enlarged land of Turks(They are not nationalist.)
 
But nationalist turks(racist Turks) did not anything except lost most of empire land.
 
Also that killing turk part is stupidy, I am sure every turkish leaders killed other turks. So Ottomans did their job too.
 
It is easy for ottomans, accept or die.
 
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 15:21
Atilla
I am not lying about anything,if you think I am,just look at the ottoman clothes and music,and tell me if you can see any turkic elements.
oh btw,Ottomans spread OTTOMAN language(which is a mixture of arabic-persian vocabulary and grammar on turkish word order),not Turkish.


Clothes - Entari's and Kaftans of Central Asia, especially the short sleethed ones, Kalpaks (Hat), Sariks (Headdresses), Kusak, Uc Eteks (Turkmen Skirt type), Bashliks, Yeldiri, Uckur (Belts, Sashes) and so on. They introduced these Turkic clothings into the middle east, Balkans and North Africa.

Read this



Photo Credit: Topkapi Palace Museum, Istanbul Photo

Out of Turkey: Sultans of Bling
Imperial Silks Put On a Dazzling Show at Sackler

By Blake Gopnik
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, October 30, 2005; Page N01

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/28/AR2005102801549.html?sub=AR





Kaftan
Turkey, 17th century
Silk satin with inlaid appliqu design
166 cm
Istanbul, Topkapi Palace Museum




Short-sleeved kaftan
Turkey, 16th17th century
Silk and taffeta
139 x 109 cm
Istanbul, Topkapi Palace Museum




Short-sleeved kaftan
Turkey, 16th century
Brocaded silk with gilt-metal and silk thread
140.5 x 110.5 cm
Istanbul, Topkapi Palace Museum

http://www.asia.si.edu/exhibitions/current/StyleStatus.htm

The Three Crescent Moons are the "Cintemati" style, originating in Turkistan-Central Asia, a Timurid style.

The Ottomans bought the Tulip motive with them from its and the Turks homeland Central Asia and used it heavily in many clothings and other arts.

Read this aswell

Textiles cut a dash on the worlds catwalks

Turkish fashions are winning credibility, says Suna Erdem

BROCADE made in the Ottoman Empire was so prized that popes in the 16th century had their robes made out of the fabric created by the infidel Muslims.
       The colourful silks, cottons and wool cloth woven by the Turks were given such importance in the Ottoman court that they were registered as belonging to the Treasury......

http://e-paper.timesonline.co.uk/turkey/13008/articles/artikel_TMSP_1GX_20050321_8_14.html



Regarding Music.

The Mehter Marsi bands were an age old Turkic millitary tradition. They influenced Europe and great composers like Mozart, who wrote the Turkish March and used Turkish influences in a few of his works aswell as Beethoven's Sympthany 9. Turks influence introduced Symbols, Bass Drum and Bells into the sympthany orchastre.

The Baglama's, Cogur, Tambura, Cumbus, Davul, Kos, Cevgen were introduced from Central Asia and are now used in many areas and regions.

Folklore, Dances and musical culture such as Ciftetelli, Zeybek, Bar, Turkmen Oyunlari, Sufi-Mevlana, Alevi Sema etc etc etc have also influenced the surrounding region.

Ottoman official state language was Turkish, the language of the court developed its own unique style. This is the same of all courts, they purposely make their spoken language have differences from the public. This is the same in England, the "Queens English" and all other similar situations.

Today you cannot read Chaucer just by picking it up and looking at it, you need to study it to understand it but its still ENGLISH LANGUAGE! Not Latin, or French or anything else, its English and a part of the evolution into modern English.

Ottoman Turkish is Turkish and the evolution to modern Turkish. Fuzuli, Bak'i, Nedim literature for example is very popular, as is Karacaoglan, Pir Sultan Abdal, Koroglu, their language was Turkish so please stop trying to create an alterior reality.

You cannot claim Ottomans didn't contribute to Turkic people, culture, history and society. There are many clear Turkic elements in their clothes, music and culture and they spread this far and wide.

They contributed tremendously to Turkic culture and spreading it to a vast geographical area.

In addition, they also adopted culture's from the other nations of the Empire, fused and changed them and introduced them as Ottoman. There is nothing wrong with OTHER PEOPLES CULTURES! and adopting the good points of other peole's cultures does not mean disrespecting your own, it instead widens and make your culture richer.


And tell me whether ottomans called themselves turk or not

Ottomans traced descendancy to "Oghuz Khan"    

Mortaza
It is interesting, ottomans enlarged land of Turks(They are not nationalist.)

But nationalist turks(racist Turks) did not anything except lost most of empire land.


I see the point your making but don't totally agree for the following reason.

Ottomans were nationlist, they were patriots for their state and worked to try benefit all the people, the land and keep the state running well.

This in my eyes is a Nationalist, somebody who loves their country, their land and all the people in the land (not just their own ethnicity).

Somebody who is an ignorant biggot, has to hate and degrade other nations in order to make themselves feel superior, who doesn't love and try to help all the people in their land is not a Nationalist this person is a RACIST hiding under the banner of Patriotism.
    



P.S Atilla, the SariKecelli in Southern Turkey today around the Toros Mountains are from the Ottoman Kayi branch, they live Nomadic Semi-Nomadic lifestyle today
     

Edited by Bulldog - 13-Oct-2006 at 15:27
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Oct-2006 at 16:30
Nationals is not equal to patriot. This is totally wrong and lie.
 
Infact This is a tool nationalist use. If I have not agree with him, then I am not patriot ext ext.
 
 
and Ottomans were far from nationalist. They treated Turks as they treated greeks.
 
Most probably that is reason why more turks were died under ottoman hands than greeks.(Turks were rebelled more, specially at anatolia.)
 
 
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