Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

The Sultan still in the house?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
Infidel View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 19-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 691
  Quote Infidel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Sultan still in the house?
    Posted: 03-Feb-2005 at 12:15

What do you think would be Turkey like today (if any different) if after the War of Independence (or one could say, Resistance), Atatrk hadn't ended the Osmanl Sultanate?

Similarly to many monarchies that still exist, and flourish, in Europe (Spain, England, Holland, and so on), do you think that by keeping the Sultan and his family as the heads-of-state would it bring the country and the region a more harmonious and fair relationship with its past? I'm mentioning this, because I reckon that with the instauration of the Republic, there was an undarstandable need to cut off with the past. Only recently, a more serious approach has been made towards reconciliation with the Ottoman heritage. (So I've read. Correct me if I'm wrong)

So, would you concieve Turkey as a modern democratic state, secular, with its parliament, but with the dinastic family?

PS - So one could imagine something like the Sultan's heir being caught up smoking pot by some paparazzis and hitting the headlines on the morning tabloids!

Or perhaps not...



Edited by Infidel
An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
Back to Top
Jagatai Khan View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Jeune Turc

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1270
  Quote Jagatai Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 03:52

They couldn't have been stating any ideas about politics.It would have been forbidden for them.

 

Back to Top
TheDiplomat View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1988
  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 11:51
Originally posted by Infidel

What do you think would be Turkey like today (if any different) if after the War of Independence (or one could say, Resistance), Atatrk hadn't ended the Osmanl Sultanate?

Similarly to many monarchies that still exist, and flourish, in Europe (Spain, England, Holland, and so on), do you think that by keeping the Sultan and his family as the heads-of-state would it bring the country and the region a more harmonious and fair relationship with its past? I'm mentioning this, because I reckon that with the instauration of the Republic, there was an undarstandable need to cut off with the past. Only recently, a more serious approach has been made towards reconciliation with the Ottoman heritage. (So I've read. Correct me if I'm wrong)

So, would you concieve Turkey as a modern democratic state, secular, with its parliament, but with the dinastic family?

PS - So one could imagine something like the Sultan's heir being caught up smoking pot by some paparazzis and hitting the headlines on the morning tabloids!

Or perhaps not...

Pal,i would to say that i am very very happy that the ottoman sultanate ended.

Personally,i see Turkey better than Holland,England,and so on in terms of royal family stuff.

i mean these princes,quens,kings in the 21.century seem weird to me.

 

we didnt ingore our past for sure although some claims.In fact,the republic have gone far past...we have started to study the history turks before Islamic influence

P.S:No i cant imagine that!it would be more sansational than prince harry

By sending the dynastic family,i think the republic did guarantee its future reforms.

 

ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!

Back to Top
azimuth View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
SlaYer'S SlaYer

Joined: 12-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2979
  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2005 at 22:33

where are the royal familly now?

in france? why they are not in turkey?

 

 

Back to Top
Alparslan View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 517
  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2005 at 03:15

I do not want to have nobility titles in my country or a royal family. Ottoman royal family should be kicked out to establish the new country instead of a old-fasioned empire which was in fact may be the last empire. There was a political conflict between sultan and new republic and there was highly possible that sultan could make alliance with Britains which have lost their interests and prestige.

Originally posted by azimuth

where are the royal familly now?

in france? why they are not in turkey?

Some of them have lived in Egypt and France. They suffered heavily from poverty. Now there is a writer Kanize Murad in France and there is the oldest member who live in USA without a nationality. He was refusing to get any nationality but at the end Turkey wanted to give him a Turkish passeport. He is now Turkish citizen.

 

Ertugrul Osman and his wife Zeynep......



Edited by Alparslan
Back to Top
Infidel View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 19-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 691
  Quote Infidel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2005 at 15:29

Ertugrul would be the rightful descendant of the last sultan?

An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?
Back to Top
Artaxiad View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 10-Aug-2004
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 488
  Quote Artaxiad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2005 at 21:06
That's what Wikipedia says.
Back to Top
Alparslan View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 517
  Quote Alparslan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 03:51
Originally posted by Infidel

Ertugrul would be the rightful descendant of the last sultan?

I do not know.

Back to Top
Jagatai Khan View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Jeune Turc

Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1270
  Quote Jagatai Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 08:40

The sultanate family took the surname "Osmanoglu".Now they live in different countries and in Turkey.

The princes couldn't have entered to Turkey until 1975.It was forbidden.

Back to Top
azimuth View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
SlaYer'S SlaYer

Joined: 12-Dec-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2979
  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 12:29
Originally posted by Jagatai Khan

The sultanate family took the surname "Osmanoglu".Now they live in different countries and in Turkey.

The princes couldn't have entered to Turkey until 1975.It was forbidden.

so the surname Osmanoglu is new? what was the surname when they where in power?

Back to Top
Turk View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 23-Dec-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 103
  Quote Turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 14:17
Originally posted by azimuth

Originally posted by Jagatai Khan

The sultanate family took the surname "Osmanoglu".Now they live in different countries and in Turkey.

The princes couldn't have entered to Turkey until 1975.It was forbidden.

so the surname Osmanoglu is new? what was the surname when they where in power?



I believe so......Osmanoglu = "Son of Osman"

Surnames were not required in the Ottoman Empire but were required for the new Turkish Republic, so I doubt they had a surname, but I could be wrong.
Back to Top
ihsan View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 06-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 831
  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2005 at 09:08
The Soyad Kanunu (Surname Law) was launched in 1934 IIRC.
[IMG]http://img50.exs.cx/img50/6148/ger3.jpg">

Qaghan of the Vast Steppes

Steppes History Forum
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Feb-2005 at 11:33
I think the existance of a symbolic dynasty would be good. The family of dynasty was sent out of Turkey. Maybe they were guilty, but I think it would be better to keep them in the borderlands and not make ourselves disrespectable to world media. They deserved a better treatment and death in my opinion...
Back to Top
Mira View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2005
Location: United Arab Emirates
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 697
  Quote Mira Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 13:47
Bump!

I just thought this was an interesting topic to be revived.

So who is the Head of the Imperial State now?
Back to Top
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711
  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 15:20

I think the existance of a symbolic dynasty would be good. The family of dynasty was sent out of Turkey. Maybe they were guilty, but I think it would be better to keep them in the borderlands and not make ourselves disrespectable to world media. They deserved a better treatment and death in my opinion...

They were not guilty, It was a political move to expel them.After that much year, I agree with you, Now they deserve better treatment.

But At that time, expelling them was a must, and be sure people respect that family much. That family served this country well, not perfect, but very good.

But I dont think we need a dynasty now. But I hope all of them will return their home.

 

Back to Top
Hamoudeh View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 06-Dec-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 75
  Quote Hamoudeh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 15:35

I don't see why monarchy plays a significant role in this discussion, how heavily problematic it may have been in it's latter era it was still a Sultanate if not a Khilafa; unlike for example the Malikiyya of Sa`udi Arabia. Would it have remained in tact, there might have been possibilities to reconstruct it to it's earlier forms. In any case, its abolishment hasn't done Muslims much good. No country that used to be ruled by the Usmanis is better of today; certainly not from a religious point of view, but not from most other angles either.



Edited by Hamoudeh
Back to Top
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711
  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 15:45

In any case, its abolishment hasn't done Muslims much good.

Do you realy think, all muslim world would still accept ottoman caliph as caliph?

No country that used to be ruled by the Usmanis is better of today.

Half true. main problem was after colapse of ottomans, all countries(except Turkey) had a problem. They didnt know how to rule themself, after all at 600 years they were ruled by ottomans. That is the reason of bloody war, at older ottomans land. 

For Turkey, well we are still repeating ottomans mistakes.

But I think If ottomans lived until this day, It would be worse for those countries.

 

Back to Top
Hamoudeh View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 06-Dec-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 75
  Quote Hamoudeh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 16:32

They might not accept it, for Arabs it was very much an nationalist issue; and that may still be in the way. But anyone that is honest cannot deny that despite of the problems, the people of Syria, Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon and so on were better off under Ottoman rule than what they have had for the past century. The problem was not as much that they couldn't rule themselves, rather what exactly it was they would have to rule themselves with. This of course on top of the colonialism that was consequential to the fall of the Ottomans. Self-rule was primarily an ideological problem, but before that the problem was colonialism. This goes for one part of the Arab world which is not better of, the other part faced extremism; not self-rule. Then there are the Balkans, where Communism eventually came to prevail. As for Turkey, I don't see how it is better off other than from a secularist and Kemalist perspective. They used to be an empire under the Ottomans that took leadership in culture and religion; after them they compromized their identity and constantly sought belonging to others. This is not advancement. If the Ottomans ruled today, even if it would be as bad as in the last era of their ruling, then US imperialism, Zionism, Arab nationalism, Kemalism, Salafism, Wahhabism and all the problems the post-Ottoman countries faced such would fall into an entirely different context and for a significant part might not have occured.



Edited by Hamoudeh
Back to Top
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711
  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 17:05

Zionism, Arab nationalism, Kemalism, Salafism, Wahhabism and all the problems the post-Ottoman countries faced such would fall into an entirely different context and for a significant part might not have occured.

I am half-agree about this, It would be better for arabs If ottoman lived, but not for turks or balkains.

Even I have some big suspect about arabs. Do you prefer arabs and Turks kill each other? (Remember both arab nationalism and Turkish nationalism borned before ww1)

For Turkey. He created some internal conflicts, but he changed something very important also. After him,  Turkey power was increasing not decreasing. Now we are not a declining power.

I am not supporter of all Ataturk did, but I think He made more more good thing  than bad thing.

For balkains, well None of them want us, It would be  bloody hell.

 

Back to Top
Hamoudeh View Drop Down
Knight
Knight


Joined: 06-Dec-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 75
  Quote Hamoudeh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2005 at 17:54

Whether one fully agrees with him or rather thinks he did more good than bad, it is sufficiently sympathetic of Kemalism and as such I can imagine how Turkey would be considered better off. For all those who don't, I can't. Aside of that religous factor, how exactly is a nation that lead a large part of the Muslim world better of as a country that seeks to belong to those who reject it? As for the Balkans, I was referring to the Muslims there. As for Arabs, no I don't like Arabs and Turks killing eachother; this nationalism on both sides emerged at the end of the Ottoman ruling, it could have been solved and if it wouldn't have been solved it was still better than all the massacres we have seen between numerous peoples in the post-Ottoman countries of the last century. In Syria alone there was colonialism, there was a civil war, there were wars with Zionism and even with all that there was still time to almost be at war with Turkey only a few years ago and who knows what's ahead with all those threats from the US and Israel. If we would go by all the Muslim countries under Ottoman rule, all have known more conflicts in a century than in the 500 years under Ottoman rule. Economically hardly any of them progressed either; save for an exception here and there.



Edited by Hamoudeh
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.