Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Western Europe Made Lighter?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Kamikaze 738 View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 26-Mar-2007
Location: Hong Kong
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 463
  Quote Kamikaze 738 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Western Europe Made Lighter?
    Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 18:56
Western Europe was often called the "Dark Ages" due to the collaspe of the Western Roman Empire that left Western Europe with many states that lacked the order and stability that the former Roman Empire had maintained. Would imperial Islam, if the Muslim army under Abd Al-Rahman defeated the French army under Charles Martel at Poitiers, be able to restored a single, central authority in Western Europe and spared Western Europe from the chaos of the "Dark Ages"?

Any comments? Star
Back to Top
Majkes View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Imperial Ambassador

Joined: 06-May-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1144
  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 19:28
Western Europe wasn't called "Dark Ages". It is a period - Medieval that is sometimes called Dark Ages.
 
Going back to the subject I think it would increase chaos as Franks were the ones trying to unite Western Europe which they manages to do by the way, although shortly.
 
 
Back to Top
Roberts View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

aka axeman

Joined: 22-Aug-2005
Location: Riga
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1138
  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 19:47
Originally posted by Kamikaze 738

Western Europe was often called the "Dark Ages" due to the collaspe of the Western Roman Empire that left Western Europe with many states that lacked the order and stability that the former Roman Empire had maintained.

I would rather say that Germanic kingdoms helped to establish order and stability in already declining Roman empire and I wouldn't call early medieval times as "dark ages" since new European culture (mix of Christianity and Roman) reached the regions of Europe which were left out of Roman empire - Germania, Ireland, later Slavic lands and Scandinavia.


Would imperial Islam, if the Muslim army under Abd Al-Rahman defeated the French army under Charles Martel at Poitiers, be able to restored a single, central authority in Western Europe and spared Western Europe from the chaos of the "Dark Ages"?

Any comments? Star

I doubt. The battle is overrated in history. The Arab empire was already overstretched and it even couldn't conquer whole Iberian peninsula. Besides Umayyad caliphate broke up only about 20 years after this battle.


Edited by axeman - 05-Jun-2007 at 19:48
Back to Top
Kamikaze 738 View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 26-Mar-2007
Location: Hong Kong
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 463
  Quote Kamikaze 738 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 19:55
Originally posted by Majkes

Western Europe wasn't called "Dark Ages". It is a period - Medieval that is sometimes called Dark Ages.


Technically, it mostly refers to Western Europe because of the lack of order and stability in the region. The Byzantines at the time werent in the "Dark Ages" because it has order and stabilty (atleast internally). There was little advances in developing technology until the Renaissance and the Reform where science, art, and technology flourished. Until then, it was all wars and wars and wars...
 
Originally posted by Majkes

Going back to the subject I think it would increase chaos as Franks were the ones trying to unite Western Europe which they manages to do by the way, although shortly.


Really? How come there was still England, Spain, the Holy Roman Empire, a yet un-unified Italian states that goes into constant warfare against each other throughout the Middle Ages and continue up to the Renaissance, Enlightenment, and even to the Imperial times?

Originally posted by axeman

I doubt. The battle is overrated in history. The Arab empire was already overstretched and it even couldn't conquer whole Iberian peninsula.


Oh yes they did Wink


Edited by Kamikaze 738 - 05-Jun-2007 at 20:03
Back to Top
Roberts View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

aka axeman

Joined: 22-Aug-2005
Location: Riga
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1138
  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 20:08
Originally posted by Kamikaze 738




Oh yes they did Wink


No, they didn't. From where do you think started Reconquista (reconquering the Iberian peninsula from Muslims)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Asturias - the region which Muslims didn't conquer.


Edited by axeman - 05-Jun-2007 at 20:10
Back to Top
Kamikaze 738 View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 26-Mar-2007
Location: Hong Kong
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 463
  Quote Kamikaze 738 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2007 at 20:40
Originally posted by axeman

Originally posted by Kamikaze 738




Oh yes they did Wink


No, they didn't. From where do you think started Reconquista (reconquering the Iberian peninsula from Muslims)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Asturias - the region which Muslims didn't conquer.


Lol, damn... I totally forgot about the Kingdom's existance. I thought it was when the Reconquista began, they established the state in northern Spain after taking it back from the Muslims. However, after reading about it there was little offensive taken in Spain by the Reconquista during the time until the Muslims were driven off France defeat at Poitiers. It was the French the fortified the country after driving the Muslims back into Spain and making the kingdom a fortress to defend against Muslim invaders into France. If the Muslims won against France, support could be cut off from France and without the French, the Kingdom might have fallen to the constant attacks from the Muslims...
Back to Top
Majkes View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Imperial Ambassador

Joined: 06-May-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1144
  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 03:41
Originally posted by Kamikaze 738


Technically, it mostly refers to Western Europe because of the lack of order and stability in the region. The Byzantines at the time werent in the "Dark Ages" because it has order and stabilty (atleast internally). There was little advances in developing technology until the Renaissance and the Reform where science, art, and technology flourished. Until then, it was all wars and wars and wars...
 
Dark Ages refers to a period. You said it like Western Europe is often called Dark Ages. You should said that ( but also Eastern cause Czech, Poland, Hungary is believed to be rather Eastern Europe ) Medieval period in Western Europe is often called Dark AgesWink But it is of course only technical note. I can't quite agre that during Medieval was little advance in technology ( improvement in agriculture, development of trade, famous philosophers etc.) Also Medieval gave birth to Renessaince. Order and stability in Europe - this always lack in Europe. When Europe was stable? Only for very short periods. Dark Ages refers more to people lack of education, prejudices, Holy Inquisition, which hunting etc...
I can't also agree with Your statment that Medieval is only wars. Actually I think Renessaince was more violent than Middle Ages. In Middle Ages Lords e.g. could run a war only for few days of the week. In some days of the week it was forbidden to fight. There were many wars but later on the wars were more bloody.   
 

Really? How come there was still England, Spain, the Holy Roman Empire, a yet un-unified Italian states that goes into constant warfare against each other throughout the Middle Ages and continue up to the Renaissance, Enlightenment, and even to the Imperial times?
 
I said Franks united Europe for a while. Have You heard about Karl the Great who united Germany, France and Italy? Besides as You state Yourself it was nothin special in "Dark Ages" concerning wars in Europe but they were less bloody than later.
Back to Top
Majkes View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Imperial Ambassador

Joined: 06-May-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1144
  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 03:43
I think the thread should be moved to Medieval or to General history by the way.
Back to Top
Aelfgifu View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 25-Jun-2006
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3387
  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 04:44
The term 'Dark Ages' is really outdated and not really used any longer in research. It is a largely misleading term, that once referred to the lack of sources on this period in Europenan history. By now, however, we have a lot of sources and knowledge, and the period is no longer 'dark' to us.
 
The idea that Europe in the Middle Ages was 'dark', 'uncivilised', 'chaotic' and 'leaderless' is a myth dating from the 16th-17th century, when 'Middle Age bashing' was favorite under scolars. Of course, all that they achieved in our eyes is to prove their own inability to conduct proper research.
 
The society that formed after the collapse of the Roman Empire was very different, but by no means 'less'. Unfortunately, many people still believe this myth, and never bother to check up on the thruth of it. Disapprove

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 06:18
Originally posted by Kamikaze 738

Would imperial Islam, if the Muslim army under Abd Al-Rahman defeated the French army under Charles Martel at Poitiers, be able to restored a single, central authority in Western Europe and spared Western Europe from the chaos of the "Dark Ages"?

Any comments? Star
 
'Imperial Islam' wasn't even able to establish a single, central authority in the Islamic world (for longer than one generation).
 
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 07:11
Would imperial Islam, if the Muslim army under Abd Al-Rahman defeated the French army under Charles Martel at Poitiers, be able to restored a single, central authority in Western Europe and spared Western Europe from the chaos of the "Dark Ages"?

Extending this to if the Arabs had conqured and held all of France.
Then absolutely. For two reasons:
1) In order to control and hold France you need a central authority (not necessarily Damascus or Baghdad, probably Cordoba)
2) They did everywhere else they conqured.
Back to Top
Jagiello View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 08-Feb-2007
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 316
  Quote Jagiello Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 08:08
They woudn't simply because there already was something that was uniting wester Europe and making order in some way - The Papacy.Instead of emperor in Rome there was a Pope in Rome.Christianity was the thing that was uniting the europeans and it is in controversy with the possible islamic empire.Even if all of France was conquered it would be retaken.Just like in Spain-all of the country was conquered but than retaken and today people there are chrisitans.
Back to Top
edgewaters View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Snake in the Grass-Banned

Joined: 13-Mar-2006
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2394
  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 15:46
Originally posted by Majkes

Western Europe wasn't called "Dark Ages". It is a period -Medieval that is sometimes called Dark Ages.


Nope. Medieval and Dark Ages are not synonymous. The Dark Ages is so named because there is a paucity of historical accounts of the period. For historians, it's like somebody turned off the light. In England, for instance, the 8th century would be the Dark Ages, but Norman England (which began in 1066) is not referred to as being in the Dark Ages.

The term "medieval" covers the entire interregnum, from when the Roman Empire collapsed to the rebirth of classical knowledge during the Renaissance. It includes periods which are relatively orderly and well-documented (such as the High Middle Ages), as well as the Dark Ages. The Dark Ages refers only to the period in which historical accounts are scarce and the picture of what was going on is murky, generally, from the fall of Rome until about 1000.
Back to Top
Lord Ranulf View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 28-Mar-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 309
  Quote Lord Ranulf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 17:40
I agree that's a very concise definition of the periods and would serve layman or proffessional. Altho the term medieval is also generaly associated with the west by scholars in the main and not the orient perse; altho as soon as i say that i am minded of more then one reference to 'medieval Japan' etc... contextualy imo they are not the same, other then in chronological association of eras of time.
Back to Top
Kamikaze 738 View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 26-Mar-2007
Location: Hong Kong
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 463
  Quote Kamikaze 738 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2007 at 18:52
Originally posted by Majkes

Dark Ages refers to a period. You said it like Western Europe is often called Dark Ages. You should said that ( but also Eastern cause Czech, Poland, Hungary is believed to be rather Eastern Europe ) Medieval period in Western Europe is often called Dark AgesWink But it is of course only technical note.


Yep, and this isnt really the topic of my discussion, so we dont just need to discuss it in a deep fashion... all Im focusing on is weather Western Europe will be better with or without Islamic influence.

Originally posted by Majkes

Also Medieval gave birth to Renessaince. Order and stability in Europe - this always lack in Europe.


Would Islam just speed Western Europe into the Renaissance 700 years eariler than what they could have done alone? What kind of impact will that have for medieval Europe?

Originally posted by Majkes

I can't also agree with Your statment that Medieval is only wars. Actually I think Renessaince was more violent than Middle Ages.


Maybe so but then again there was alot of things other than warfare technology improved during the Renaissance so balances out the constant warfare going out. This is the time of great discoveries such as the New World, it bring in vast knowledge about the world. Famous people such as Leonardo da Vinci and Michelangelo and many more that created fabulous works. Scientific discoveries revolutionized the way people see things again such as the works of Isaac Newton and Galileo Galilei. There wasnt anything really like this in the medieval ages. Renaissance isnt all war and more war as you can see.
 
Originally posted by Majkes

I said Franks united Europe for a while. Have You heard about Karl the Great who united Germany, France and Italy? Besides as You state Yourself it was nothin special in "Dark Ages" concerning wars in Europe but they were less bloody than later.


Karl the Great? Also know as Charlemagne? If so then yes, he did unite Europe. Even though his political reforms were something like the Renaissance and it provided stability and order to his empire but it wasnt a lasting thing. Europe quickly fell back into the "Dark Ages" again after his death and the spliting of his empire. So then would Islam provide a much longer stability and order in the region as they did in Spain (which flourished under Muslim rule) or will it be the same even if the Muslims took over France? Ermm

Originally posted by gcle2003

'Imperial Islam' wasn't even able to establish a single, central authority in the Islamic world (for longer than one generation).


Same for Western Europe so would Islamic influence in Western Europe have any dramatic affect on the region?

Originally posted by gcle2003

Christianity was the thing that was uniting the europeans


However, it didnt stop all the fighting such as English and French Hundreds Years War did it? Pinch
Back to Top
arch.buff View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 18-Oct-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 606
  Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 00:35



Would Islam just speed Western Europe into the Renaissance 700 years eariler than what they could have done alone? What kind of impact will that have for medieval Europe?

 
 
I guess we should first define Renaissance. It literally means "rebirth". Rebirth of the greatness of the ancients, specifically Roman and Greek. It was humanism at its finest. This was the age of man and all his greatness. I believe the great Italian(for the most part) movement was fueled by these great men who felt it was their responsibility to regain their former greatness. So would Islam have brang on the Renaissance any earlier? I dont think it would have came at all under Islamic rule, not because Muslims wouldnt have been enlightened enough to have start such a movement but because they wouldnt have felt the burden the great men that came, and culture as a whole, into the Renaissance and the High-Renaissance had felt. It was this culture that needed this movement, to be short.
 
Plus, could a Palladio come out of any other culture?(he's on my top 5 list of peeps Id like to meet)Tongue
 


 
Be a servant to all, that is a quality of a King.
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810
  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 07:21
Originally posted by Kamikaze 738



Karl the Great? Also know as Charlemagne? If so then yes, he did unite Europe. Even though his political reforms were something like the Renaissance and it provided stability and order to his empire but it wasnt a lasting thing. Europe quickly fell back into the "Dark Ages" again after his death and the spliting of his empire. So then would Islam provide a much longer stability and order in the region as they did in Spain (which flourished under Muslim rule) or will it be the same even if the Muslims took over France? Ermm

This has been said already, the Dark Ages are ONLY called dark because the lack of sources. Other use is a popular myth. In many languages the term doesn't even exist.

The Muslim invasion caused temporary stability and order by foreign conquest. In any case, the Muslim in rule in Spain were hardly entirely peaceful, as al-Andalus decayed into civil war, creating the taifas that did not only continue to fight each other in ways that would make any squabbling European warlord proud, but also the Almohads and Almoravids they initially invited. The Almohads and Almoravids ended up fighting each other both in Iberia and North Africa as well. If anything, it was the Reconquista that provided order and peace in Iberia.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 07-Jun-2007 at 07:49
Back to Top
Aelfgifu View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 25-Jun-2006
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3387
  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 07:38

You seem to think that there is a distinct line to draw between the renaissance and the Middle Ages, kamikaze, but there is no such line:

 
The hundred years war, which you use as proof of the violent middle ages was from 1337-1453. Meanwhile in Italy there were such enlightned men as
Petrarca 1304-1374
Boccaccio 1313-1375
and Botticelli 1445-1519
 
Whereas Gallileo Galilei (1564-1642) lived during the most destructive and violent war in Europe ever: the thirty years war, 1618-1648.
 
So I do think you have a somewhat wrong impression of both the Middle Ages and the Renaissance...
 
And even if you insist on using the dreaded term Dark Ages, it can by absolutely no means ever be applied to the period of the hundred years war. The Dark Ages, or the Early Middle Ages, as they are actually called, ended in the tenth century at the very last.
 
Originally posted by Kamikaze 738

Originally posted by gcle2003

'Imperial Islam' wasn't even able to establish a single, central authority in the Islamic world (for longer than one generation).

Same for Western Europe so would Islamic influence in Western Europe have any dramatic affect on the region?
Originally posted by gcle2003

Christianity was the thing that was uniting the europeans

However, it didnt stop all the fighting such as English and French Hundreds Years War did it? Pinch
 
No, but christianity did unite the knight of the first Crusade for long enough to conquer Jerusalem. The cristians would never ever have gotten that far if the Islamic leaders would have united against them, but they had too much fighting to do amongst themselves to stop the Crusaders. Ad not until Saladin managed to unite a fair portion of the Islamic world did they manage to seriously drive the christians out again.


Edited by Aelfgifu - 07-Jun-2007 at 07:50

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
Back to Top
rider View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar

Suspended

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4664
  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 08:11
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

The term 'Dark Ages' is really outdated and not really used any longer in research. It is a largely misleading term, that once referred to the lack of sources on this period in Europenan history. By now, however, we have a lot of sources and knowledge, and the period is no longer 'dark' to us.
 
The idea that Europe in the Middle Ages was 'dark', 'uncivilised', 'chaotic' and 'leaderless' is a myth dating from the 16th-17th century, when 'Middle Age bashing' was favorite under scolars. Of course, all that they achieved in our eyes is to prove their own inability to conduct proper research.
 
The society that formed after the collapse of the Roman Empire was very different, but by no means 'less'. Unfortunately, many people still believe this myth, and never bother to check up on the thruth of it. Disapprove


Very well said. Yet I should note that there isn't exactly a mass of sources (literary I mean) from these times. But the society, culture and progress made during the so called Dark Ages are really wonderful. I mean, there might be so many more interesting things to be found out about the 6th century Germany than there is of the 13th century Italy.
Back to Top
Aelfgifu View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 25-Jun-2006
Location: Netherlands
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3387
  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 08:27
Originally posted by rider

Very well said. Yet I should note that there isn't exactly a mass of sources (literary I mean) from these times. But the society, culture and progress made during the so called Dark Ages are really wonderful.
 
There are not a lot of literary sources no, although not as little as you would think either. But the big difference made today is archaeology. In the past, historians did not find stone walls and marble statues, and concluded that there was nothing to be found on the period. But with modern techniques and a different look, evidence has been found for large buildings, intricate artwork, and a lot of correspondence amongst common people, only often made of/on wood, which is not a lasting material.

Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.203 seconds.