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Finno-Ugrian impact on Russian ethnos

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  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Finno-Ugrian impact on Russian ethnos
    Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 03:32
Originally posted by O-jah

I haven't studied much about these genetics, but I really doubt this theory. And by the way the genetics doesn't say anything about what language they spoke.
 
But the Y-hp N corellates very well with FU languages, so it is a good indicator.

Originally posted by O-jah

And as far as i know the finno-ugrians came to Europe before indo-europeans.
 
No, IEs are the indigenous population of East Europe. FUs are later newcomers from East Asia. This is what the original FUs looked like (man of the FU Pit-Comb Ware culture, ca. 4000 BC):
 
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  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 03:38
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Of course, they played a role in the forming of the ancient Rus nation. Currenly, Belorussians are considered to have the biggest influx of Baltic blood.
 
Yes, northern Belorussians have ca. 19% of the Finno-Ugrian Baltic hg N:
 

We estimated haplogroup N3 frequencies in the three Belarusian subpopulations. The results suggest that the uniqueness of the northern Belarusian population is most likely due to the high incidence of Y chromosomes from the haplogroup N3 (18.9%), which has half the frequency in central and southern Belarus (8.8 and 8.1%, respectively). Therefore, although the early ethnogenesis of the Belarusian nation has customarily been linked to the gradual Slavicisation of the homogeneous Baltic substrate on the territory of present-day Belarus (Sedov 1970), only northern Belarus seems to be a transient area for the Baltic and Slavic settlement.

 

https://www.springerlink.com/content/c3ht013txp686v71/resource-secured/?target=fulltext.html
 
Originally posted by Sarmat12

And let's not forget that Balts and Slavs lived for so long in one state: Grand Duchy of Lithuania.
 
Yes, Belorussians and Ukranians were the subject population in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania ruled by the Finno-Ugrian Lithuanian elite.
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  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 03:46
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Pay attention, word Balaika, is also "of Turkic origin"
 
No, it is not.
 
GENERAL: также балаба́йка, бала́бойка, южн., зап. (Даль), укр. балаба́йка, также балаболька "бубенчики". Согласно Бернекеру (1, 40), к балабо́лить. Можно было бы также связать балала́йка (в качестве расширенной формы вместо *бала́йка) с бала́кать. Менее вероятно предположение Горяева (ЭС 10) о заимств. из тюрк., тем более что он не может указать источник. Ср. рум. bălălăí, bănănăí "качать, колебать, махать, размахивать", этимологии которого Тиктин (1, 152) не дает.
 
 
Balalaika is a Russian instrument of Russian origin, while kobza is a Turkic and Ukrainian instrument of Turkic origin.
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  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 03:50
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Originally posted by aeon

 
No, judging by his description by Leo the Deacon, Svyatoslav was a Finno-Ugrian who adopted the Turco-Mongol hairstyle from his Pecheneg allies.
 
LOL  I still thing he just was a simple viking. BTW I don't think he copied the hair from Pechenegs. His war customs resembles Vikings ones most of all. Pechenegs, in fact, were mostly his enemies, not allies.
 
Pechenegs were his allies against Khazars, they only later became his enemies. And Vikings never had the Turco-Mongol hairstyle, they wore long hair and beards, and were no different from "Muscovites".
 
 
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  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 04:10
Originally posted by O-jah

Yes i could be wrong with this, but i remember reading about this from some new study, wich if i remember right was even posted in this forum in some thread. (But i don't have energy to try find it right now.) And i didn't read it very carefully anyway. But they problably had some theories and facts about it...

And i have a feeling that i've read/heard about this from somewhere else too.

But anyway i think it is an interesting subject and should be studied more.
 
You are wrong to believe that Finns in Novgorod were second-class people. They could rise to very high posisitons. For example, in the early 13th century there was Semyon Yemin (i.e. from the tribe of yem' = Ha:me) who held the position of tysyatskiy (hiliarch), the second in rank after king. In the late 11th century there was a noble boyar Mikula Chudin (Finn or Estonian) who ruled Kiev together with king Vladimir Monomachus. Also, in the early 11th king Vladimir the Saint garrisoned his newly-built fortresses in Ukraine with northern people including Finns.
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  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 04:17
Originally posted by Sarmat12

I would say, generally Ukrainians are more darker and Poles are more blond. But they definetelly are both Caucasians. I never witnessed any Mongoloid features in Ukrainians
 
I have.
 
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 04:48
Originally posted by aeon

Originally posted by O-jah

I haven't studied much about these genetics, but I really doubt this theory. And by the way the genetics doesn't say anything about what language they spoke.


But the Y-hp N corellates very well with FU languages, so it is a good indicator.
Originally posted by O-jah

And as far as i know the finno-ugrians came to Europe before indo-europeans.


No, IEs are the indigenous population of East Europe. FUs are later newcomers from East Asia. This is what the original FUs looked like (man of the FU Pit-Comb Ware culture, ca. 4000 BC):




Where is all this information based? Or what is the source?

Interesting photo. Where is this Pit-comb ware culture man from?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 05:01
Originally posted by aeon

Originally posted by O-jah

Yes i could be wrong with this, but i remember reading about this from some new study, wich if i remember right was even posted in this forum in some thread. (But i don't have energy to try find it right now.) And i didn't read it very carefully anyway. But they problably had some theories and facts about it... And i have a feeling that i've read/heard about this from somewhere else too. But anyway i think it is an interesting subject and should be studied more.


You are wrong to believe that Finns in Novgorod were second-class people. They could rise to very high posisitons. For example, in the early 13th century there was Semyon Yemin (i.e. from the tribe of yem' = Ha:me) who held the position of tysyatskiy (hiliarch), the second in rank after king. In the late 11th century there was a noble boyar Mikula Chudin (Finn or Estonian) who ruled Kiev together with king Vladimir Monomachus. Also, in the early 11th king Vladimir the Saint garrisoned his newly-built fortresses in Ukraine with northern people including Finns.


This is very interesting information. Where i can read more about this (in english or finnish), or are these your own studies?

-------------------------

Soon i have to start preparing for the last real Finnish pagan party to night. party, party....
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  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 05:48
Originally posted by O-jah

Where is all this information based? Or what is the source?
 
It's all in Russian.

Originally posted by O-jah

Interesting photo. Where is this Pit-comb ware culture man from?
 
Sakhtysh near Ivanovo in north-central Russia. There are a few reconstructions of early FUs from Russia that look very similar.
 
These are Pit-Comb Ware people from Karavaikha, also near Ivanovo
 
 
 
This man is from Yuzhny Oleny Ostrov in Karelia
 
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  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 05:49
Originally posted by O-jah

This is very interesting information. Where i can read more about this (in english or finnish), or are these your own studies?
 
I have read it all in Russian.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 06:16
Originally posted by aeon

 
They were either exterminated, fled or merged into Turkic hordes.
 
I suppose you are not serious.
 
 
 
Originally posted by Anton

2. How come that Ukranians are Slav  speaking people with so minimum turkic words in their language?
 
Minimum? Are you joking? According to the Ukrainian Language Encyclopedia, there are about 4,000 Turkic loanwords in Ukranian.
[/QUOTE]
 
First of all, 4000 is nothing. Any Balkan nation has about that amount of Turkish words. Second, their grammatics is clearly slavonic.
.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 06:20
Originally posted by aeon

I have.
 
You have because you are biased. Only the 6th guy in your list looks like having mongoloid features, but most likely he is Tatar not Ukranian.
.
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  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 06:40
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by aeon

 
They were either exterminated, fled or merged into Turkic hordes.
 
I suppose you are not serious.
 
I am. How else can you explain the fact that when Ukranians arose as a distinct ethnicity in the 16th century they had no memory of the Russian state that existed in their land in the 10th-13th centuries?
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  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 06:42
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by aeon

I have.
 
You have because you are biased. Only the 6th guy in your list looks like having mongoloid features, but most likely he is Tatar not Ukranian.
 
They are all Ukranian. The images represent Ukranians from central Ukraine.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 07:19
Originally posted by aeon

I am. How else can you explain the fact that when Ukranians arose as a distinct ethnicity in the 16th century they had no memory of the Russian state that existed in their land in the 10th-13th centuries?
 
What kind of memory would you like?
.
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 07:22
Originally posted by aeon

They are all Ukranian. The images represent Ukranians from central Ukraine.
 
Anyone lived in Russia will tell you that this guy is not representative Ukranian. By that way one can post a picture of any "small northern nation" or Tuva or Sakha as a representative Russian from certain Russian district.
.
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  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 07:37
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by aeon

They are all Ukranian. The images represent Ukranians from central Ukraine.
 
Anyone lived in Russia will tell you that this guy is not representative Ukranian. By that way one can post a picture of any "small northern nation" or Tuva or Sakha as a representative Russian from certain Russian district.
 
You can not compare Tuva or Sakha to central Ukraine. And nobody will publish pictures of Tuvinians or Yakuts in a book about the anthropology of ethnic Russians.
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  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 07:38
Originally posted by Anton

Originally posted by aeon

I am. How else can you explain the fact that when Ukranians arose as a distinct ethnicity in the 16th century they had no memory of the Russian state that existed in their land in the 10th-13th centuries?
 
What kind of memory would you like?
 
Any memory at all.
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  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 07:46
Mongoloid admixture in Ukranians is well known to Ukranian anthropologists. This is what the most prominent Ukranian anthopologist Serhiy Seheda says:
 

Сергій СЕГЕДА

АНТРОПОЛОГІЧНИЙ СКЛАД ДАВНЬОРУСЬКОГО НАСЕЛЕННЯ


[у кн.: Давня історія України. К., 2000. Т.3. С.505-514.]

 

В антропологічній літературі останніх десятиліть неодноразово ставилося питання про роль кочівницького компоненту у форму\511\ванні морфологічних рис русинського населення Київщини, Чернігівщини та Переяславщини. Інтерес до цієї проблематики пояснюється численними літописними свідченнями про словянсько-тюркські взаємини в цих регіонах і знахідками кочівницьких поховань на давньоруських некрополях. Ще наприкінці минулого століття Д. Я. Самоквасов отримав на території колишнього Канівського повіту невелику краніологічну серію, в будові котрої виразно простежуються монголоїдні риси, а саме: брахікранія, низька висота склепіння, великі розміри обличчя, слабко профільованого в горизонтальній площині, низький кут виступання носа і т. ін. За цими ознаками вона близька до черепів зі Зливкінського могильника VIIIX ст., залишеного тюркомовними болгарами, які разом з аланами були носіями салтівської культури. Черепи з монголоїдними рисами виявлені і в інших місцевостях Середньої Наддніпрянщини, зокрема в Пороссі. Так, сліди монголоїдної домішки (сплощеність обличчя в горизонтальній площині, слабке виступання носових кісток і т. ін.) виявлені на чотирьох з восьми жіночих черепів з Миколаївського ґрунтового могильника. Ще в більш виразній формі вони фіксуються на чотирьох чоловічих і трьох жіночих черепах з могильника поблизу с. Хутір Половецький, звідки походить всього 26 черепів. Так, чоловічим черепам 9 (22), 3 (12), 9 (8), 9 (15) властиве нешироке, низьке, дещо сплощене обличчя, слабке виступання носа, невисоке перенісся і т. ін., що вплинуло на загальну характеристику серії.

Деяке ослаблення європеоїдних ознак, яке виявилось у тенденції до пониження кута виступання носа, можна простежити і в інших серіях Середньої Наддніпрянщини, що, вірогідно, є наслідком регулярних контактів між давньоруською людністю та сусідніми кочівницькими групами. Зауважимо, що вплив тюркського (кочівницького) компоненту (збільшення діаметру вилиць, тенденція до сплощення обличчя та поперечної спинки носа і т. ін.) помітний і серед сучасного населення Південної Київщини, Черкащини та Полтавщини, де давньоруські літописи фіксують поселення торків, чорних клобуків, половців та ін.

  

http://litopys.org.ua/segeda/se05.htm

 

Сергій СЕГЕДА

АНТРОПОЛОГІЧНИЙ СКЛАД УКРАЇНСЬКОГО НАРОДУ

 

Крім того, на півдні Київщини, Черкащини, Полтавщини (там, де давньоруські літописи фіксують поселення середньовічних тюркомовних кочовиків) помітна певна монголоїдна домішка, зокрема збільшення діаметра вилиць та складки верхньої повіки, тенденція до сплощення обличчя та поперечної спинки носа тощо.
 

Дуже цікаві результати отримані за підсумками вивчення дерматогліфічної колекції з сіл Великополовецьке та Малополовецьке на Київщині, походження яких літописні джерела повязують з половецьким ханом XI ст. Турготканом. За свідченням Повісті временних літ, 1094 року Турготкан віддав заміж за київського князя Святополка свою дочку, а натомість дістав дозвіл поселити у княжих володіннях свою орду. Союз Турготкана із зятем був нетривким і через два роки хан загинув у битві з руськими воїнами. Одначе й за триста літ по тому наприкінці XIV ст. містом Сквирою та довколишніми селами, включаючи згадані, володів його нащадок Кориман. Це підтверджується археологічними даними, оскільки в курганах давньоруського часу, розкопаних в околицях Великополовецького, знайдені кочівницькі поховання. До того ж деякі прізвища корінних мешканців даної місцевості, наприклад, Шеремет і Шамрай, мають тюркське походження. Так, слово шеремет перекладається як жвавість, гарячкуватість коня, той, хто має швидкий, легкий крок (про коня), брутальний, запальний, неввічливий.

За більшістю дерматогліфічних маркерів половецька вибірка близька до інших груп південного комплексу. Однак вона характеризується найвищим в Україні дельтовим індексом (13,5). Подібні величини даної ознаки, що є чутливим індикатором монголоїдної домішки, властиві корінним народам Поволжя та Приуралля, зокрема башкирам. Отже, дерматогліфічний аналіз дає змогу простежити в Середній Наддніпрянщині сліди давнього кочівницького компонента.

 
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2007 at 08:35
Mongoloid admixture is one thing, whereas your idea that Rus' were moved by Mongoloid nations is completely different.
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