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What is the contribution of Christian civilization
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Posts: 80 		  Quote white knight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What is the contribution of Christian civilization
    Posted: 27-Aug-2007 at 07:39
and politics: the divine right theory
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Posts: 1900 		  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2007 at 09:04
and the oldest European university, Bologna, was not a church institution but a secular one
Actually there was almost no secular education (as we know it today) in Middle Ages, since the beginnings of Medieval education in the Late Antiquity. Particularly, in the university of Bologna (said to be founded in 1088, a date which cannot be proven and was chosen rather conventionally in 1888 or thereabouts, however in 1888 it was a celebration of eighth cententary), though it was essentially a school of law. It was a deeply religious environment, which seldom displays secular aspects as we today understand them. Disciplines like medicine or law weren't taught and practiced ignoring the almighty Christian god as it happens today.
 
Also the subject of the thread seems to be about the contribution of Christian civilization, not the Christian church, so maybe the chronic anti-Christians should temper their discourse a little bit.
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Posts: 1457 		  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2007 at 05:57

The Christians were the spiritual inheritors of Rome and aside from the receiving of spirit they got prime property all over Europe and with a users manual, on how to set up a diocese complete with bishops, etc. Never before or again in world history had a religion been so blessed by their God with goods and property. Alaric and his (Christian?) Visigoth armies ransacked Rome and meanwhile Christianity arose all the better off from the wreckage.

Many forms of Christianity developed when put in different cultures, but all the hard work of pummeling Europeans into accepting orders came from way above had already been done by the now pagan Romans. You can call the losers whatever you want! The various forms of Christianity can seem like different religions, but nowhere near on the same scale as other religions. The foundations had been laid for Christianity to become the most successful religion in history and so it did. After all the unparalleled successes, Christianity is now threatened by the rise of the most stupid form of fundamentalism that could be imagined, that actually denies the advances that Christianity has brought over the ages. 

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Posts: 606 		  Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2007 at 11:24
Originally posted by elenos

The Christians were the spiritual inheritors of Rome and aside from the receiving of spirit they got prime property all over Europe and with a users manual, on how to set up a diocese complete with bishops, etc. Never before or again in world history had a religion been so blessed by their God with goods and property. Alaric and his (Christian?) Visigoth armies ransacked Rome and meanwhile Christianity arose all the better off from the wreckage.

Many forms of Christianity developed when put in different cultures, but all the hard work of pummeling Europeans into accepting orders came from way above had already been done by the now pagan Romans. You can call the losers whatever you want! The various forms of Christianity can seem like different religions, but nowhere near on the same scale as other religions. The foundations had been laid for Christianity to become the most successful religion in history and so it did. After all the unparalleled successes, Christianity is now threatened by the rise of the most stupid form of fundamentalism that could be imagined, that actually denies the advances that Christianity has brought over the ages. 

 
Very interesting post elenos and I do agree with you. One would assume that with the coming of the Son of God that this also should obviously entail a ushering in of a "golden age", not quite the case. All men from every religion and belief have made achievments in their own right. All contributions by christians, if we are to follow Christ, should be centered around love. It is the underlining factor to christian belief. Ok. So what of the christian military achievements? Obviously these cant be "christian" contributions? Or can they? Unless of course Im looking deeper into the question at hand and were looking for just the contributions of civilizations that just so happen to be christian.  
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Posts: 157 		  Quote The_Jackal_God Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2007 at 13:57

why can't 'christian' military achievements be considered 'christian' contributions?

it's not obvious to me, but i do understand in light of 70's anti-war protests some americans tend to equate war = absolute evil, ignoring any consideration of 'just war' theory - which might be considered a military ethics contribution.
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Posts: 606 		  Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2007 at 19:13
Originally posted by The_Jackal_God

why can't 'christian' military achievements be considered 'christian' contributions?

it's not obvious to me, but i do understand in light of 70's anti-war protests some americans tend to equate war = absolute evil, ignoring any consideration of 'just war' theory - which might be considered a military ethics contribution.

 
Thats why my post was made into a question.
 
"Or can they?"
 
It seems clear to me that by any means neccesary the true faith should be defended but at what costs.....possible human life even if the lives taken are threats to Christs Church it is still to be appreciated as human life and all integrity applied as life given by God. So looking deep into the question , obviously a complex one that scripture would help with, is military devices really "christian"?
Let us not forget that military contributions can also help save lives as well as destroy them.
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Posts: 1230 		  Quote Adalwolf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2007 at 19:33
Originally posted by TheDiplomat

individual-liberalism...
 
the birth of individual was a Christian achievement.


Oh really? When one is supposed to be a sheep amongst God's flock? When one is supposed to bow down before God and be submissive?
Concrete is heavy; iron is hard--but the grass will prevail.
     Edward Abbey
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Posts: 1457 		  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2007 at 20:14

Ah but Christianity is a religion after all is said and done and like all other religions there are so many questions you are allowed to ask before you are out of order. One cynical Roman writer observed that religion is a tool for keeping the superstitious masses in check. I suppose the answer is to say that religion is Gods tool on earth. (Oh my god did I say that? Whoops!)  Anyway the Roman position was always quite clear; those that hold the reins of power are absolutely in charge for no matter what they do they are carrying out the will of the god(s). That more or less explains the stand of the church(es) ever since.

 The religious stand has been clear to mankind throughout history. If one of your upstart neighbors really annoys you, rise up, whack the bastard in the kisser, and only afterwards forgive him for pissing you off in the first place. Think about it. What else do you think Christian military achievements have been all about? They are carrying out the prime directive and succeeded because there were too many annoying bastards in the world that really needed shutting up.

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Posts: 606 		  Quote arch.buff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2007 at 14:10

As stated above scripture, as always, sheds some light on the issue of military or violent force.

In Luke 3:14 John the Baptist acknowledges that Roman soldiers, whose job it was to enforce the Pax Romana, could keep their jobs.
 
Also Paul states that the state "does not bear the sword in vain" Romans 3:14
 
and in the Old Testament we read that there is a "time to kill" Ecclesiastes 3:3
 
-It should be noted that above all peace is what is desired and that force should be avoided if at all possible.
 
On that note could passiveness be attributed to christianity or would the Chinese be deserving of this?


Edited by arch.buff - 29-Aug-2007 at 14:11
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Posts: 114 		  Quote Crystall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2007 at 16:51
This topic is clearly meant only to demean christianity and never was intended to actually discuss the positive aspects of christianity, therefore I think this topic is only one sided and should be closed
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Posts: 482 		  Quote kilroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2007 at 18:53
Crystall,

I have seen nothing in this discussion that warrants the closure of the entire thread.

If you have any specific post or comment in mind, please send me private message.

For future reference, if you have any complaint about a thread in this subfourm, please send me a PM instead of posting in the thread itself.

Thank you,

-kilroy
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Posts: 157 		  Quote The_Jackal_God Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2007 at 23:55

nicely put arch.

also, the encounter between the centurion and Jesus. Jesus respects his understanding of authority, and does not rebuke his career as a soldier.
 
life is sacred, including christians' lives - hence, anyone who is attacked has the right to defend themselves. Pope Benedict cited World War II as the best example of the necessity of using force when the situation arises, with fascism threatening a dominion of lies and violence. The Allies were right to rise up and counter that assault on liberty and truth.
 
so also was Solidarity right to rise up against the Communist regime, although fortunately things didn't have to go as far as bloodshed.
 
Just War Theory is a well-developed theory - and the point i got from it when i skimmed over it was that you always have the right to defend yourself, and your role in war is just as long as your not the aggressor.
 
hence the ethical problem w/ the pre-emptive Iraq war. then again, nuclear and ballistic technology, like guns, brings new ground for ethics to illuminate, so i am not up to date on those issues.
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Posts: 2091 		  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 00:09
Originally posted by The Jackal God

Just War Theory is a well-developed theory - and the point i got from it when i skimmed over it was that you always have the right to defend yourself, and your role in war is just as long as your not the aggressor.


Well said. Just to add a bit I'll not that even when a war is just, the Christian Church has always emphasized that it is immoral. The early councils, while recognizing the necessity of war in a fallen world, nevertheless set penances upon participation in bloodshed to reemphasize this fact.

-Akolouthos
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Posts: 1457 		  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 02:10
Originally posted by Crystall

This topic is clearly meant only to demean christianity and never was intended to actually discuss the positive aspects of christianity, therefore I think this topic is only one sided and should be closed


The Christian gospels never said to wimp out, but to face up to those you think are opposing you  (which they are not) and at least talk to them before throwing around any accusations of whatever is is that's bothering you. Don't expect others to do it for you! Now that is what I call true Christianity.

Like you said yourself the positive aspects of Christianity are found not in one sidedness, but (like you didn't say) showing love and tolerance to all. If a man slaps one cheek then to him the other. I wonder who said that?

What I pointed out was how man never thinks this way. If persecuted they do what you are doing and say they should be punished in some way. Wasn't it Paul that said about putting on the armor  of the Christian soldier? Now is your big chance to practice what you preach!


Edited by elenos - 30-Aug-2007 at 02:11
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Posts: 114 		  Quote Crystall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 02:34
Originally posted by elenos

Originally posted by Crystall

This topic is clearly meant only to demean christianity and never was intended to actually discuss the positive aspects of christianity, therefore I think this topic is only one sided and should be closed


The Christian gospels never said to wimp out, but to face up to those you think are opposing you  (which they are not) and at least talk to them before throwing around any accusations of whatever is is that's bothering you. Don't expect others to do it for you! Now that is what I call true Christianity.

Like you said yourself the positive aspects of Christianity are found not in one sidedness, but (like you didn't say) showing love and tolerance to all. If a man slaps one cheek then to him the other. I wonder who said that?

What I pointed out was how man never thinks this way. If persecuted they do what you are doing and say they should be punished in some way. Wasn't it Paul that said about putting on the armor  of the Christian soldier? Now is your big chance to practice what you preach!
 
Christian gospels never said to wimp out? Now thats what you call true Christianity? Hah, what are you talking about?
 
One only has to look at how this posting is set up to see that it is clearly set up to slander christianity. You believe because I have said this that I must be some "extreme christian" who does not wish to hear this, but I am not. Just because most on this forum are non religious and many actually dispise christianity and all religions doesn't mean you can start telling me to "stand up for my religion."  Good one!


Edited by Crystall - 30-Aug-2007 at 02:35
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Posts: 2091 		  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 02:44
Ok guys, please calm down. Bickering, which is where this would eventually lead, is not only un-Christian, but tacky as well. I have, myself, unfortunately been guilty of a bit of tackiness on occasion, so I speak from a history of unpleasant experience. Wink

Please, please shake hands and make up.

-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 30-Aug-2007 at 02:49
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Posts: 482 		  Quote kilroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 03:07
Thank you Akolouthos for setting an example.

Elenos, Crystall, please cut it out.  This topic has been derailed, i hope you will set it back on track again. 

-kilroy
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Posts: 1457 		  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 04:11
I'm not arguing with Crystall, she does have a point, and must congratulate her for now taking a stand for what she believes in. I disagree with being so passive as to let people ride over the top of you. Like I have pointed out the first instinct of man on the social level is to get your own back.  Jesus lost his cool in the temple with the money changers, overturned their tables and shouted at them. He used the only way to talk to the greedy. They would have just laughed if he had went around like a wimp saying "Please guys, I love you, but would you be so kind as to leave?" If this man who was called Son of God on earth didn't say "Sorry to disturb you" then neither will I. Figure that one out if any of you dare!
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Posts: 114 		  Quote Crystall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 14:15

Christianity has had numerous contributions to civilization, and has even laid down the foundation of western civilization as we know it. You cannot difine European history without strong mention of christianity.

Although many might say christianity does not/did not contribute to science, this can be refuted. Old pagan religions worshipped parts of nature as if they were living, and could be angered or made happy. The Bible says that nature is real, not an illusion. Science was sanctioned in christianity, as a way to relieve the suffering and pain of man. Note that places of healing and thought were mostly at monastaries. Even alcohol production was progressed there (which many say WOULD be a great contribution : / )

Interesting article that I came across and commented about :
 
CHristianity is like many other things is history, a double edged sword. You may aruge institutions such as  the catholic church during the middle ages was corrupt, and which I would agree, but that is simply man twisting christian teachings to fit their own agenda, not exactly what God intended. Now you can twist what I wrote in this paragraph to attack with it, but I think it was important enough to be noted.
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Posts: 1457 		  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 18:54

I agree with you Crystall. Why should I fight against good? If you want to know what I really thing about Christianity then I refer you to what I have previously written just before writing to you. Here was little old me, the only one willing to stand up for Christianity! If you truly want to defend Christianity here is the place to be at,

 http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20681

 Ps, If you don't understand what is going on in the thread keep on scrolling down until I come into it, then the fireworks begins!



Edited by elenos - 30-Aug-2007 at 18:59
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