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What is the contribution of Christian civilization
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ulrich von hutten View Drop Down
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Posts: 3638 		  Quote ulrich von hutten Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What is the contribution of Christian civilization
    Posted: 28-May-2007 at 05:47
Blood and thunder; Oppression of dissidenter and different minder.
Technical Innovation of instruments of torture.
New ways of questioning together with above-named.
Hectoring, falsification and last but not least curruption and dissimulation.
 
Whereas i don't know whether all this attributes and deeds were the descovery of the christianity, in every case they made it perfect.
 
And,there is no reason for all the other supporters of hinduism, islam and what else, to crow. They all didn't it much less.

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Posts: 5711 		  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2007 at 07:05
Originally posted by Praetor

Originally posted by Paul

How about the collapse of the Roman Empire, probably attributable to the conversion to christianity.


The Roman Empire had been in decline for over one hundred years before Christianity became the state religion.

Regards, Praetor.


I tend to think that the Roman state collapsed and transformed due to underlying economic and military decline, Christianity was a reaction to try and help stem those problems.
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Posts: 5711 		  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2007 at 07:18
Though following on from its adoption, Christianity did provide the largest and most needed form of welfare assistance to society for many regions in the post Roman period until the emergence of the welfare state.

Edited by Constantine XI - 28-May-2007 at 07:19
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2007 at 08:07
Originally posted by pinguin

Modern Universities, and its methods of teaching, come from Middle Ages Europe. Before them there were always centers of learning, but they worked more in a personal teachings levels, where professors discuss things in a personal level (Platon Academy, the Museum of Alexandria, Madrassas, etc.)
That was still true of Cambridge when I was there (and may still be for all I know) though I think you're using the title 'professor' rather loosely by British standards. Tuition was mainly through personal one-on-one tutorials, discussions and evaluation of essays.
 
I think you are taking the German university model, as developed in the US primarily, and viewing it as the medieval model, which it isn't. Neither really is the French model.
 
The medieval universities were communities of teachers and scholars: there was much less rigorous distinction between the 'faculty' and the 'students'.
 
Universities are massive machines of learning, with a lecturer, classes, students taking notes, etc.. I mean, a new method of teaching. And as such, they were an original thing when they started.
But as you describe them they are a modern institution.
 
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2007 at 08:17
 
Originally posted by pinguin

 
Even more, I believe it is possible to trace the development of the modern concept of human rights from those religious beginning in the Catholic faith. Even feminism and the equality of women can be found in the writings of a Catholic nun of the 17th century: Juana Ines de la Cruz
I can't agree with you so readily on that one. I'm pretty sure the modern concept of human rights dates way back into prehistory, into tribal cultures, certainly well before Christianity.
 
It's only when you bring in monotheism, and the belief that that single God views everyone equally, that Christianity becomes the originator.
 
That everybody has equal rights is common among North American aborigines, the early Germanic tribes, early Mesopotamian cultures, Pacific islanders.... Of course special positions were given to elders or to people seen as specially talented or gifted, but that rests on displayed merit, not automatic inherited position.


Edited by gcle2003 - 28-May-2007 at 08:17
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Posts: 316 		  Quote Jagiello Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2007 at 11:59
Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by Jagiello

Originally posted by Zagros

Universities are not an originally Christian or European concept.
 
ShockedObviously the history proffesor that teaches me history and all the books i've read are mistaken.No offence,i'm quite sure the universities are 100% christian incention.I'm not talking about schools,but about the UNIVERSITIES as we know them.You have any proofs or sources that say who invented the universities?
My friend univiersities were up and running outside of Europe while monks copied down texts on parchment, and your richest noblemen did not know how to sign his own name.
 
LOLNow i get it!This is why the best universities in the world are outside of Europe and US.This is why all european students go to arabian and asian universities - because they are older than ours and because they invented the universities!But what do i know?I'm just a stupid european whose ancestors didn't invent a sh*t.Atleast not as much as youre ancestors and for sure not the Universities.I'm gonna cut the crab because i'm tired of arguing "who's better" and "who contributed more".Just read a bit or atleast show me some source as Zagros did instead of trying to offend me,because i can offend you in the same way and recieve 2nd warning or worst.
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Posts: 3335 		  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2007 at 16:56
Maintaining social order, if spiritual and religious stuff are taken out of equation.
 
 


Edited by pekau - 28-May-2007 at 16:56
     
   
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Posts: 386 		  Quote Praetor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 03:29
Originally posted by Constantine XI


I tend to think that the Roman state collapsed and transformed due to underlying economic and military decline, Christianity was a reaction to try and help stem those problems.


I would agree. Hence why I pointed out that Christianity could hardly be blamed for the collapse as it only had the influence to do so far into the decline. Even if Christianity was a factor (I don't believe it was) it could hardly have been the most important.

Regards, Praetor.
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Posts: 1988 		  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 04:40
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by TheDiplomat

individual-liberalism...
 
the birth of individual was a Christian achievement.
 
Could you please elaborate?
 
With pleasure.
 
The assuption that society consists of individuals, each with an ontological ground of hie or ehr own, is a translation of the Christian premiss  of the equality of souls in the eyes of God.
 
... A primary role shaped by all equally was distinguished from secondary roles such as those of father, servant or woman.
 
The birth of individual was, to that extend, a Christian achievement. Oveer centuries, the individual was gradually translated from a moral criterian into a primary or organizing social role.
 
Source: Larry Siedontop, Democracy in Europe, published by Pinguin PressWink
 
ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!

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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 09:04
TheDiplomat -
 
I don't disagree that your post reflects a Christian position (though it isn't true of all Christian sects), but I'm unconvinced that Christianity first posits a primary ontological ground for each individual.
 
It would take a lot to convince me because you would have to show that each and every previous philosophy failed to do so, which would be tough as any universal proposition is.
 
However, I'd also suggest that in all societies, the fact that different individuals have different roles does not mean that they are not recognised as having something in common that makes each an individual.
 
Aristotle does not believe in the equality of individuals, but that does not mean he does not see them as individuals. He writes: "For what each thing is when fully developed, we call its nature, whether we are speaking of a man, a horse, or a family. Besides, the final cause and end of a thing is the best, and to be self-sufficing is the end and the best."
 
Whether something is a man, a horse, or a family, it therefore has a 'nature' which means it has an ontological ground, just as much as being equal before God implies a unique ontological ground.
 
Go back even further, to animism, and you have the belief that all animals - even indeed all living things - share the same quality of being an individual - have minds, intelligences, purposes.
 
Moreover, you would get back to Omar's point: there is no doubt that Buddhism, more sophisticatedly, sees all individuals as individuals (that after all is the rationale behind trying to escape from the wheel of existence, and become absorbed into the One). It does that without the need of a God (indeed as Epicurus had done).
 
 

 
 
 
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Posts: 2252 		  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 09:07
Fiat money, world banks, global media.
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Posts: 3387 		  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 09:22
Originally posted by gcle2003

 
Originally posted by pinguin

 
Even more, I believe it is possible to trace the development of the modern concept of human rights from those religious beginning in the Catholic faith. Even feminism and the equality of women can be found in the writings of a Catholic nun of the 17th century: Juana Ines de la Cruz
I can't agree with you so readily on that one. I'm pretty sure the modern concept of human rights dates way back into prehistory, into tribal cultures, certainly well before Christianity.
 
It's only when you bring in monotheism, and the belief that that single God views everyone equally, that Christianity becomes the originator.
 
That everybody has equal rights is common among North American aborigines, the early Germanic tribes, early Mesopotamian cultures, Pacific islanders.... Of course special positions were given to elders or to people seen as specially talented or gifted, but that rests on displayed merit, not automatic inherited position.
 
Even though in christianity, all people were equal before God, they were by no means always considered equals to each other. In Medieval European societies, huge differences in class and status were accepted in the idea that it was Gods plan and intention to make one man superior over another, each with his own task, in three groups (Knights fight, monks pray, peasants work). The idea that some people are naturally better than others is an idea that continued in the Early Medieval Time (kings ordained by god, anyone?) up to the enlightenment, which is when the first ideas on social changeability came into existance, followed by socialistic ideas on equality. The enlightenment was, if not anti-christian, certainly not particularly pro-christain either, and socialism is often anti-religious, so seeing christianity as a promotor of equality can only be done with extreme moderation. Equality as we know it is certainly not christian.
 
Oh, besides, German society was not equal either: it was dependant on slavery for its agriculture.
 
Originally posted by Jagiello

Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by Jagiello

Originally posted by Zagros

Universities are not an originally Christian or European concept.
 
ShockedObviously the history proffesor that teaches me history and all the books i've read are mistaken.No offence,i'm quite sure the universities are 100% christian incention.I'm not talking about schools,but about the UNIVERSITIES as we know them.You have any proofs or sources that say who invented the universities?
My friend univiersities were up and running outside of Europe while monks copied down texts on parchment, and your richest noblemen did not know how to sign his own name.
 
LOLNow i get it!This is why the best universities in the world are outside of Europe and US.This is why all european students go to arabian and asian universities - because they are older than ours and because they invented the universities!But what do i know?I'm just a stupid european whose ancestors didn't invent a sh*t.Atleast not as much as youre ancestors and for sure not the Universities.I'm gonna cut the crab because i'm tired of arguing "who's better" and "who contributed more".Just read a bit or atleast show me some source as Zagros did instead of trying to offend me,because i can offend you in the same way and recieve 2nd warning or worst.
 
Dear dear. Prejudice and ignorance flying about in heaps again.
 
Jagiello, universities are not an European invention and the oldest European university, Bologna, was not a church institution but a secular one, so they are not a christian invention either. And language like that is not acceptable, please learn.
 
Es_bih, illiteracy was considerably smaller in Europe in the Middle ages than most people think, this false idea is largely due to the fact that most people did not write on parchment, which is a sturdy and superior material, but on materials like wood, bark or other plants which have not withstood the time. If interested, see for instance: Mary Garrison, Send More Socks: On Mentality and the Preservation of Medieval Letters, in: New Approaches to Medieval Communication, M. Mostert ed. (Turnhout, 1999), pp. 69-99.
 
 
Something I think is purely Christian is the idea that all life is sacred, and all killing is bad, although this is something that was lost a couple of times by the Church on the way.


Edited by Aelfgifu - 29-May-2007 at 09:34

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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 09:34
Originally posted by es_bih

My friend univiersities were up and running outside of Europe while monks copied down texts on parchment, and your richest noblemen did not know how to sign his own name.


Gaah! Not this myth again (bolded). Though there weren't any universities in early Medieval Europe people weren't totally illiterate.

 You could argue whether the oldest university is Greek, Chinese, Indian or Arab, but in any case you can't call it a gift of Christianity.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 29-May-2007 at 09:36
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Posts: 463 		  Quote Kamikaze 738 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 09:50
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Something I think is purely Christian is the idea that all life is sacred, and all killing is bad, although this is something that was lost a couple of times by the Church on the way.


It is now revisited today and is a big concept of Christianity that is teached...
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Posts: 3387 		  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 09:53
Originally posted by Kamikaze 738

Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Something I think is purely Christian is the idea that all life is sacred, and all killing is bad, although this is something that was lost a couple of times by the Church on the way.


It is now revisited today and is a big concept of Christianity that is teached...
 
Yes it is, but I just realised that Buddhism has the same thing...

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Posts: 80 		  Quote white knight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 10:07
Originally posted by Jagiello

 
ShockedObviously the history proffesor that teaches me history and all the books i've read are mistaken.No offence,i'm quite sure the universities are 100% christian incention.I'm not talking about schools,but about the UNIVERSITIES as we know them.
 
Well, Charlemagne made education available for commoners not just for the relegious.
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Posts: 3387 		  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 10:13
Originally posted by white knight

Originally posted by Jagiello

 
ShockedObviously the history proffesor that teaches me history and all the books i've read are mistaken.No offence,i'm quite sure the universities are 100% christian incention.I'm not talking about schools,but about the UNIVERSITIES as we know them.
 
Well, Charlemagne made education available for commoners not just for the relegious.
 
No he didn't. He made education available to all who had talent, whether noble or not. But these talented boys (and some girls) were packed into monasteries and convents.

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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2007 at 03:30
Yes, my slip on Judaism oops.
The birth of individual was, to that extend, a Christian achievement. Oveer centuries, the individual was gradually translated from a moral criterian into a primary or organizing social role.

I agree with gcle that viewing people as individuals is not confined to time, culture or area. However I am inclinded to say that individualism, as in the individual is the primary social unit, is largely a Germanic cultural achievement/habit.
Jagiello, universities are not an European invention and the oldest European university, Bologna, was not a church institution but a secular one, so they are not a christian invention either.

What about Salerno? Or is Bologna older by a few years? They are both similar ages IIRC
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Posts: 3387 		  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2007 at 04:42
Salerno was a Medical School and its peak was in the 11th-13th century, but is wasn't made into an university until 1944...
 
859 Fez, Morocco
988 Cairo, Egypt
1088 Bologna, Italy
1150 Paris, France
1167 Oxford, England
1175 Modena, Italy
1209 Cambridge, England
1212 Valladolit, Spain
Salamanca, Montpellier, Padua, Naples, Toulouse, Siena, Coimbra, Rome, Perugia, Timbuku etc.
 
 
 
On learning in Asia:
Originally posted by wiki

Medieval universities did not exist in Asia in the strict sense of the phrase. However, there were important centres of learning that can be compared to the universities of Europe. It must be noted that unlike the European universities, non-western institutions of higher learning were never known to issue degrees to their graduates and therefore do not meet what many hold to be the technical definition of university. This does not, however, bar their importance to the history of non-western cultures.

One of the most important Asian centres of learning was Nalanda, which had been established by the 5th century BC, in Bihar, India. The second century Buddhist philosopher Nagarjuna was based there.

Nanjing University was founded in 258 in China. There were several other universities, called Guozijian, in ancient China.

In Persia, one notable institution was the Academy of Gundishapur.

In the Near East, such as the Islamic Al-Azhar University in Cairo, founded in 988.

In Vietnam, the Quoc Tu Giam (國子監, literally "National University"), functioned for more than 700 years, from 1076 to 1779.



Edited by Aelfgifu - 30-May-2007 at 04:46

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Posts: 80 		  Quote white knight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2007 at 09:25

contribution on psychology too namely:

 
 


Edited by white knight - 05-Jun-2007 at 10:20
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