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Ottoman territories in Africa

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  Quote kurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ottoman territories in Africa
    Posted: 25-May-2007 at 08:04
As we know, the african states of algeria, tunisia, libya, eritrea and egypt were under ottoman rule for some time. my query is: what about morocco, sudan, ethiopia and somalia? were they ever under ottoman rule and/or suzeranity? if so, when did they become ottoman territories and when did they cease to be so? did they join the empire through conquest, such as selim's conquest of egypt, or did they voluntarily join, such as algeria during the reign of suleyman the magnificent?
 
if there are other african states i didn't mention please state them. 
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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2007 at 08:44
Morocco has not been directly a part of Ottoman Empire, but has been a vassal or under influence in certain times(beginning from late 16th century) after the Battle of Vadi-us Seyl between Ottoman+Moroccan Forces and Portuguese, after that Portuguese lost and the Portugal faded away in 1580 anyway with the annexation of Spain.
 
Ottomans haven't gone inland from Eritrea into Ethiopia.Ethiopia was under control of her own kings.
 
Sudan has remained officially under the control of Ottomans via Mehmed Ali Pasha's expedition into Sudan in 1820. Before that, Ottomans didn't move towards the huge Nubian deserts. The whole control of the region then passed on to British under the name of Anglo-Egyptian Sudan, although that happened after a long war against the Mahdist uprising forces between 1884-1898....


Edited by Kapikulu - 25-May-2007 at 08:45
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2007 at 11:25
Originally posted by kurt

what about morocco, sudan, ethiopia and somalia? were they ever under ottoman rule and/or suzeranity? if so, when did they become ottoman territories and when did they cease to be so?
 
I am quite interested to know the extent of Ottoman influence in Somalia.  Was it just nominal suzerainty, with the sultan choosing local warlords to carry out his bidding?  Also, the timeframe of Ottoman contact with Eastern Africa is a bit hazy.  I am thinking this occurred around the time of expansion into the Indian Ocean in the late 16th century.
 
Originally posted by Kapikulu

Sudan has remained officially under the control of Ottomans via Mehmed Ali Pasha's expedition into Sudan in 1820. Before that, Ottomans didn't move towards the huge Nubian deserts.
 
Was this another instance of the Ottomans ruling by proxy or did they actually establish a provincial government in the Sudan? 
 
It is difficult to find any literature on Ottoman involvement in Africa besides Egypt.  Can anyone suggest anything in English or French?
 
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2007 at 11:40

I also read that the Ottomans had shipbuilding yards and docks on the Somali Coast and had some presence even further South?

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  Quote Legacy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2007 at 14:37

The Ottomons gave Somali warlods weaponry to invade Christian Ethiopia in the 16th century, they invaded large parts of Ethiopia but a series of mistake by the Somali general for underestimating the Ethiopians and help from the Portugese and his resulting death weighed in the favour of the Ethiopians. I believe the war was called 'Futah al Habesha'  (Conquest of Ethiopia)

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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2007 at 20:54
Originally posted by Legacy

The Ottomons gave Somali warlods weaponry to invade Christian Ethiopia in the 16th century, they invaded large parts of Ethiopia but a series of mistake by the Somali general for underestimating the Ethiopians and help from the Portugese and his resulting death weighed in the favour of the Ethiopians. I believe the war was called 'Futah al Habesha'  (Conquest of Ethiopia)
 
So Ottoman involvement in Somalia was that of rulers by proxy?  It would be interesting to know the details of the military aid given to the Somali warlords.  By this I mean did they send small arms, artillery, or both?  Did they send officers to act as commanders or did the Somali use their own military command?
 
It is very difficult to find any literature on the subject of the Ottomans in Africa.  I am assuming that most of it is in Turkish, which I cannot read.  Does anyone know of anything in English or French?
 
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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 04:41
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

 
 
 
Was this another instance of the Ottomans ruling by proxy or did they actually establish a provincial government in the Sudan? 
 
 
Excuse me for missing this post. Yes, it was a rule by proxy. Mehmed Ali Pasha was the proxy ruler.


Edited by Kapikulu - 20-Jun-2007 at 04:43
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  Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2007 at 08:58
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

 
So Ottoman involvement in Somalia was that of rulers by proxy?  It would be interesting to know the details of the military aid given to the Somali warlords.  By this I mean did they send small arms, artillery, or both?  Did they send officers to act as commanders or did the Somali use their own military command?
 
It is very difficult to find any literature on the subject of the Ottomans in Africa.  I am assuming that most of it is in Turkish, which I cannot read.  Does anyone know of anything in English or French?
 
 
The Somalis received 2000 musketeers from Arabia and some 1000 Ottoman arquebusiers (perhaps provincial Janissaries) plus 10 field guns in order to counter the 400 portuguese who, with their arquebuses and guns, defeated the Somalis twice. The Ottoman fought very well but in the end the few hundreds that remained with Somalis were massacred by the vengeful Portuguese.
 
All this is beautifuly described by Miguel de Castanhoso who participated in the Portuguese expedition to Abyssinia
 

Bibliography:

Castanhoso, Miguel de (not. Neves guas). Histria das cousas que o muito esforado capito D. Cristvo da Gama fez nos Reinos do Preste Joo com quatrocentos portugueses que consigo levou, Mem Martins: Publicaes Europa-Amrica, 1988

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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2007 at 20:33
Originally posted by Sikander

The Somalis received 2000 musketeers from Arabia and some 1000 Ottoman arquebusiers (perhaps provincial Janissaries) plus 10 field guns in order to counter the 400 portuguese who, with their arquebuses and guns, defeated the Somalis twice. The Ottoman fought very well but in the end the few hundreds that remained with Somalis were massacred by the vengeful Portuguese.
 
All this is beautifuly described by Miguel de Castanhoso who participated in the Portuguese expedition to Abyssinia
 

Bibliography:

Castanhoso, Miguel de (not. Neves guas). Histria das cousas que o muito esforado capito D. Cristvo da Gama fez nos Reinos do Preste Joo com quatrocentos portugueses que consigo levou, Mem Martins: Publicaes Europa-Amrica, 1988

 
Very nice, Sikander!  Thank you for giving us this summary.  I definitely cannot read Portuguese although some of it is discernable based on my knowledge of Latin. 
 
It would have been interesting to see how the Ottoman arquebusiers fought along side the Somalis.  I wonder if they were all commanded by Ottomans or if the Somalis had their own native generals?  The field artillery strikes me as interesting as well.  Were the pieces small bore or actual bombards that were co-opted into field guns?
 
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  Quote Jagatai Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2007 at 16:40
Zanzibar was an Ottoman state for a short time.
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  Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 12:43
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

Originally posted by Sikander

The Somalis received 2000 musketeers from Arabia and some 1000 Ottoman arquebusiers (perhaps provincial Janissaries) plus 10 field guns in order to counter the 400 portuguese who, with their arquebuses and guns, defeated the Somalis twice. The Ottoman fought very well but in the end the few hundreds that remained with Somalis were massacred by the vengeful Portuguese.
 
All this is beautifuly described by Miguel de Castanhoso who participated in the Portuguese expedition to Abyssinia
 

Bibliography:

Castanhoso, Miguel de (not. Neves guas). Histria das cousas que o muito esforado capito D. Cristvo da Gama fez nos Reinos do Preste Joo com quatrocentos portugueses que consigo levou, Mem Martins: Publicaes Europa-Amrica, 1988

 
Very nice, Sikander!  Thank you for giving us this summary.  I definitely cannot read Portuguese although some of it is discernable based on my knowledge of Latin. 
 
It would have been interesting to see how the Ottoman arquebusiers fought along side the Somalis.  I wonder if they were all commanded by Ottomans or if the Somalis had their own native generals?  The field artillery strikes me as interesting as well.  Were the pieces small bore or actual bombards that were co-opted into field guns?
 
 
The Ottomans fought under their own commanders, this is clearly stated by Miguel de Castanhoso who even refers a brave Turkish commander who killed a couple of soldiers until being finaly killed by a Portuguese soldier who, however, didn't escaped from having is leg badly slashed by the Ottoman captain.
According to Castanhoso, a year after the Ottomans intervention most of them became displeased with the Somalis and left home. So it is clear that each of them was commanded by men of their own nation and would be allies more than "commanders and commanded".
As for the artillery, I suppose they were "medium" pieces because Miguel does not refer them as being "light". The Portuguese had, for their part, a few breech-loading guns and some 11 makeshift "organ" guns (actually made by puting arquebuses into carts) so only light guns.
 
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2007 at 16:20
Originally posted by Jagatai Khan

Zanzibar was an Ottoman state for a short time.
 
Do you have some sort of source for that? I know that Zanzibar was conquered by the Omanis from 1824 to 1896, but I never heard of the Ottomans actually having a presence the area. As for the glory period of the Ottoman Empire, Zanzibar was either independent or ruled by Portugal. The Omanis themselves were independent of the Ottomans.
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  Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2007 at 03:53
Yes, that is true. The Portuguese kept Mombaa for themselves until 1698 (or something like that), but there was never an Ottoman intervention in that area.
As far as I know, the other states were independent, nor even being nominaly submited to the Sublime Porte.
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  Quote Jagatai Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2007 at 18:20
Originally posted by Decebal

Originally posted by Jagatai Khan

Zanzibar was an Ottoman state for a short time.
 
Do you have some sort of source for that? I know that Zanzibar was conquered by the Omanis from 1824 to 1896, but I never heard of the Ottomans actually having a presence the area. As for the glory period of the Ottoman Empire, Zanzibar was either independent or ruled by Portugal. The Omanis themselves were independent of the Ottomans.


I have heard this from ihsan.As he said, Ottoman ships land on Zanzibar, defeat the Portuguese and establish a garrison there.A larger Portuguese force comes and defeat them.It was 16th century.
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  Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 08:58
Who or what is "ihsan"???
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  Quote Decebal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 10:59
ihsan was a member from the old AE forum. Anyway, I foudn this link, which might be interesting:
 
 
Actually, take most of what's in there with a grain of salt, as much of it is islamic propaganda, and I found a few factual mistakes. Still, some parts relevant to Zanzibar may be interesting.


Edited by Decebal - 16-Aug-2007 at 11:28
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  Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2007 at 12:25
Interesting document and "interesting" islamic propaganda language...
But nowhere it refers the Ottoman presence in Zanzibar or the Eastern African coast on a whole. Perhaps our friend Kurt missread "Oman" and took it for "Ottoman"?
 
BTW there was no "Alfonso" Albuquerque (the guy wasn't Spanish!) so his name should be writen "Afonso Albuquerque"; "Joas de Barros" is actually "Joo de Barros"; "Duarte Barbose" is "Duarte Barbosa", etc...
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  Quote kurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2007 at 07:52
I've never even heard of Zanzibar, my friend. Wikipedia informs me that it is an island of the coast of east Africa, which raises questions about the Ottoman fleet in the Indian Ocean.
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  Quote Sikander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2007 at 08:21
You had never heard of it??? Well... fortunately we can always learn through life, isn't it? Smile. I've learned a lot from AllEmpires myself.
 
Anyway, the Ottomans acted against the Portuguese in the Red Sea in the 1540's. I guess they were somewhat sucesseful as the Portuguese abandoned this policy which was dificult to follow because of the failure to take Aden in the 1510's.
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  Quote kurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2007 at 08:33
I always thought the Portuguese humiliated both the Persians and the Ottomans in both the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf. It took the Safavids around a century to capture the island of Hormuz back. Not to mention Piri Reis, who was executed by the Ottoman government for his defeat by the Portuguese around 1560 in the Red Sea. What did the Portuguese want in those seas anyway?
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