Europe�s oldest

Around 5000 years ago, mostly what is now Bulgaria was the place where the Thracian race was formed from their predecessors. They are now known as the first advanced civilization of Europe  because of those "pre-Thracians" (who have been proven to be the first gold makers and earliest society with classes of Europe) and later contributed as one of the three races making up Bulgarians. The Thracians later came into contact with the Hellenes and others around them. The Greeks wrote about them as being a very populated country and as being very good at war.

                        13 - 12 century B.C.

                         Thracian Bronze age

 

 

 

                                                                       (www.altours-bg.com)

        

                        4th cent. B.C.

                        Thracian gold

 

 

 

Orpheus who was made into Greek mythology was a Thracian, wonderous musician. The Thracians also fought in the Trojan war as the ally of Troy against the Greeks. Thrace never develped an alphabet, but were recorded by the Hellenes and Romans. There are also lots of temples and tombs ect. in different parts of Bulgaria from Thracians as a sign of their develped culture.

Thrace met the Romans at around 200 B.C. After much fighting with the numerous armys of Rome they finally became a full province in 46 A.D. In between those times however the Romans had captured parts of Thrace and enslaved them. The well known Thracian Spartacus then led the world's biggest slave rebellion.

Edited by Thracian

Let's see.....
Thracians the "first advanced civilization"???
I'd think NOT.

The Most Ancient Stone Art in Europe - Kokkinopilos (33.000 B.C..). At a red ground layer in the Epirus position of Kokkinopilos the most ancient stone art of Europe and Mediterranean, made from small rock blades of 33,000 B.C., was discovered. [Papadopoulou F.. "Η Εποχή του Λίθου στην Ήπειρο" (The Stone Age in Epirus) , Δωδώνη publications]

The Most Ancient Shipping in the world - Frahthi of Argolida (7.000 B.C.). The Frahthi cave hid many surprises to the scientists. There, apart from the most ancient burial of Europe (10,000 B.C.), relics of prehistoric fishery were found and foremost : opsidianus pieces of 7,000 B.C. (Note that the volcanic material of opsidianus exists only in Milos island. Opsidianus of the same age has been found in Halkidiki and Hoirokitia of Cyprus...). This stands as a serious proof that Greeks already were travelling with ease all over the Aegean sea.[Jacobsen T. 17.000 Years of Greek Prehistory , Scientific American, 234 (1976)]

Agricultural cultivation in Nea Nicomedia(7.000 B.C.). 2,000 decarbonated wheat seeds lie among the rest findings of N. Nicomedia, proving that these distant ancenstors of ours already knew how to cultivate the ground from the 7th millenium B.C... N.Nicomedia in the Macedonian land together with Hoirokitia of Cyprus constitute the oldest cities with increased settlements structure and organization in the world. During the same age (at the proceramic stage) Knossos, Argissa, Elateia and other cities also prosper.

The Sesklo civilazation (5,000 B.C.). The first 'complete' European civilization is birth of  Thessalia's land. Sesklo civilization with its acropoles is characterized from its landhills and the beautiful ornamenting - ceramic with linear jewels and stone stamps with the maeandric geometric shapes (at the same age Orhomenos, Nea Makri and a bit later Diminio, Saliagos etc. also prosper).

Since the topic is about Tracians, let's see what ancient texts and finds show:

Archeology:
Ancient mask very similar to Agamemnon's and an Olympic ring were unearthed from a Thracian tomb by Tsvetelia Ilieva and Stoyan Nenov.
Based on the FACT that  ONLY Hellinic tribes took place in the Olympics does make everyone skeptical.

Le's see what is found in ancient texts:

When Seuthes heard all that, he said that he trusted all Athenians, because he knows that between him and them there is a kinship, and thus he considers them as his dear friends."

[Seuthes was the King of Southern Thrace]

(Seuthes' ancestor Teres, and First King of the Thracian Odrysians, was in fact Tereus who married the daughter of the Athenian King Pandion and had lands in Phocis. This happened in the remote antiquity. Events described here take place ca. 400 B.C.)

Source:

Xenophon�-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter II, 31


 b. (Seuthes replied Maisades was my father, and he ruled the Melanditae, the Thynians and the Tranipsae.[Thracian tribes].

(The Thracian Tribal names are all Greek etymologically.)

Source:

Xenophon,-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter II, 32

c. (Xenophon said We intend to go to a place where the soldiers will be able to find food for themselves. There, we will hear what Aristarchus the Spartan has to say and what you have to propose, and we shall choose to go with whomever proposals' sound more beneficial to us.

(King Seuthes replied I know many villages that are not far away one from the other, where food can be found in abudance.

(Seuthes could speak and understand Attic Greek, thus he was able to converse with Xenophon, an Athenian, directly without the intervention of an itepreter.)

Source:

Xenophon,-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter III, 8-10

d. When they were close at the gates, and they were preparing themselves to enter and dine, they met a certain Heracleides from Maronia.

(Maronia was a Greek City on the Thracian Coast between Abdera and Doriscon Lt. Doriscum. Heracleides was King Seuthes' aid-de-camp.)

Source:

Xenophon�-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter III, 16

e. Then Seuthes arose, and drunk along with Xenophon all the wine in their cups, and then, together, they shed the last drops of the wine on the ground, as a "sponde".

(A "Sponde", was an Archaic Greek Custom, documented to be practised at least from the time of the Trojan War. Achilles, Menelaus, Patroclus, Agamemnon, Diomedes, Odysseus, Hector, Paris, Priamus, in short terms everybody as early as 1260 B.C. to honour the Gods. The practicing of the same custom by the Thracians means that, they had common customs with the Greeks.)

Source:

Xenophon�-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter III, 32

f. (Seuthes said Prepare yourselves and wait. When the time is right I shall come with my Peltasts take you and lead you with the help of the Gods.

(Greeks and Thracians had the same Gods, i.e. the twelve Olympian Gods.)

Source:

Xenophon�-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter III, 36

g. And [thus] as a password, they set the name of the Godess Athena, because of the kinship between Athenians and Tracians.

Source:

Xenophon�-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter III, 39

 h. (The Thynians, one of the Thracian tribes Seuthes and Xenophon wage war against, attack the Greco-Thracian Army. Book VII, Chapter IV, 12-19)

(And) they even called out the name of Xenophon as well, and challenged him to step out of the (keep) to kill him, otherwise they threatened him that they would burn him where he stands.

(It is clear that even the Thynian tribesmen, commoners in other words, spoke Greek. Knowledge of the Greek language was not limited to Noblemen only.)

Source:

Xenophon-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter IV, 15

i. Because many of the Odrysians left their mountain homes to take part in his [Seuthes'] military operations because they have learned of his achievements.

(Seuthes was the son of the King of the Odrysians, a Thracian tribe that lived in the Thracian mountains, not in the Thracian coast.)

Source:
Xenophon�-Anabasis: Book VII, Chapter IV, 21


CONCLUSION:
There were clearly many ties, linguistic, cultural, racial, as well as religious between the Thracians and the Hellines.

As the evidence of the Archaic Thracian King Tereus tells us, contacts between the mainland Hellines and the Thracians are as old as at least 8th cent. B.C.

Of course there is even more evidence in the Iliad, which is much more difficult to read and extract quotations, due to the highly poetic language of Homerus.

Some other connections as I posted above can be found in religion:

Pausanias, Description of Hellas 9.30.1
Tells us how the the Thracian women plotted the death of Orpheus, in this same text we also find a list of other Hellinic Gods.

Again in Pausanias, Description of Hellas 7.5.1
We find that only Thracian women were allowed to enter sanctuary of Herakles at Erythrae he also mentions them visiting the temple of Athena at Priene.




Edited by Hellinas

What is it with you people ? Why is it so terribly important and a matter of national pride,which particular part of Europe sprouted the first so-called "civilisation". It hasn't got the slightest bit of relevance for today.
Any of the people who argue that their specific bit of soil was the "craddle of humanity' haven't got the slightest connection, or a very loose one indeed, to the people that first settled in his/her country and started ploughing or herding.
I'm German, and Germany has been in it's ethnic composition relatively stable over the last 1000 years, but I have Polish and some Dutch ancestry. My kids are /English/German/Yugoslav/Italian/Dutch,and that's only going back three generations. So what particular early civilisation could they claim as theirs.
For people from the "Balkans" to speak of a interrupted ethnic lineage, must be nearly impossible.Thrace, Greece, Macedonia have all seen innumerous waves of migration, that all changed the ethnic formation on a frequent basis.
And what the heck anyway, I couldn't give a monkey about that when my ancestors still lived in the swamps and on the trees, there were highly civilised nations in Mesopotamia or Egypt. (And many others, I don't want to start another argument.)
I still regard the Ziggurats and Pyramids as part of my heritage, as today's culture is an amalgamation of global ideas and not any society's specific achievement.
So leave it out, stop arguing about who came first, it might be of archaeological interest, but otherwise, it doesn't matter.




Edited by Komnenos

The earliest evidence of goldsmithing is in Bulgaria.  Not to take anything away from any culture but the fact that there is elaborate gold metallurgy and appearance of marked social differences within the chalcolithic communities of the region does give strong evidence of the earliest beginnings of a stratified civilization.

This is based on the archaeological evidence.

well it is interesting that there are people in eat bulgaria that call themselvs not bulgarians but thracians. And not young people that is. When i was there some 10 years ago i meet this old lady (i was staying at her house that summer) and she told us that she is thracian. we asked her, if she comes from thracia, and she said yes, but not only because she comes from that place, but that she IS thracian, and it means that she is not bulgarian, not greek, not macedonian, not turk, but thracian.

Her children on the other hand were proud bulgarians, and she said she is sorry about the assimilation that made all people that live in bulgaria bulgarians. (last try was to make all turks in bulgaria bulgarian by changing their names by force)

So like basks or helvetians, there are some leftovers from old times, not pure, but with more ancient blood in them. (i am not racist, i dont want to offend anyone)

and given your past records,

You guys have some chip on your shoulder, that is the only excuse I can see for you  speaking of "past records" or naming me a racist.
In these fora I have NEVER offended anyone.(maybe jassum a couple of times) but that is based on his historic ignorance and propaganda.
Are you people nothing more than sheep? Since Yiannis said it, must it be true?
Judge for yourself and give me examples of my " past records" as you call them.
If I reach the "end" some of you people have helped by pushing me with this BS.

Sorry but, I'm only human.

Komnenos, if you have an issue with Hellinas (as your last post seems to imply) why not take it - both of you - to PM and not pollute the topics with that kind of stuff? I am posting a few weeks now in AE and I've seen a horde of people trying to prove either that they are "ethnically superior" or that "they were first here" (wherever that "here" is) or trying to show that their ancestors were once great. You don't seem to have any problems with any of them, save Hellinas (who, at least, has some data to bring forth and uses actual sources, unlike most other nationalists). Yes, Hellinas is fixed on the "Greek supremacy" ideals, but that is hardly a novelty in AllEmpires - half of the members are also fixed on similar ideas and propagate them in every chance.

If it's personal, take it to PM and duke it out with him. If it's not personal, I'd expect you to behave the same when other members are posting nationalistic rabble as well.

Fair enough?

Since it is personal, then, it hasn't got anything to do with this topic. I thank you for being constructive and admitting wrong when wrong is done, that is a virtue almost lost in our world (and especially in the internet forums, anonimity and all).

Back to the topic at hand, which is interesting indeed, as it opens avenues for further examination.

Hellinas' post (I know Komninos, but as I said I DO NOT agree with his ideas but he uses actual sources and facts - how you interprete those is another matter altogether) has brought forth, indirectly, something rather interesting: the case for anthropological and cultural continuity (for lack of a better word) of the helladic area. I want to take this on a broader scope: Seems that there are a series of fairly advanced cultures in Europe from the mesolithic period and on. And in several occassions those cultures seem to build a consistent (more or less - archeology is a tricky science I've been told) picture of a continuum in certain areas of the continent (Balkans, Italian peninsula, land of Basque and others) that projects into the historical times.

The dating of those cultures and the other facts concerning this, are building a picture that does not comply with the Indo European theory and it's implications (about massive shift of a large body of populations that "replaced" the indigenous Europeans) but suggests that these indigenous Europeans (not immune to outside intervention, of course) kind of "were always there".

Have you read anything about that? Have you got any decent study that supports or dismisses those ideas? What is your take on it?

Renfrew was one of these archeologists I had in mind. I've heard this is a greate book and I should find it somewhere and buy it (but haven't done so until now... maybe I'll try Amazon one of these days).

 

Hellinas

Let us try to be all polite to each other and not ignite another exchange of not-so-nice messages, shall we?

We are all aware of the shortcomings of the IE theory and the migrations theory in general. But I'd like some specific data. I've read about Sesklon, for instance, and the article was decent, although not clear of some silly assertions.

You got any reading material on those findings? Besides those you've already mentined, I mean. I've found references (loads of them) but very, very limited actual material. Have you got any links or book titles? English, Greek or German will do.

Edited by Aristoteles