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If the Nazis conquered the USSR?

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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: If the Nazis conquered the USSR?
    Posted: 14-Jul-2007 at 18:41
I don't see how they could have done it. The Soviet citizens were pushed into battle by a brutal regime and had been indoctrinated beforehand. Although overall they had inferior weaponry to the Nazis (Well, apart from the T-34, PE-2 Peshka and others), the sheer size would have made it impossible, even if the Germans had managed to defeat the Soviets at Kursk and Stalingrad. If they did, they would have just got bogged down and down into the winter and probably would have eventually experienced gurellia warfare.
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jul-2007 at 08:04

How can I say this without offending somebody? Hitler was human! Not only was he human but he was a leader, somehow he could collect together people that listened to him. What if he had been an idiot? Then he would have ended up being what he already was, a chest beating trade union leader. This one barking dog managed to slip the union lead, and came to power in a series of illegal but brilliant moves.

His grasp of war tactics seemed remarkably astute at first. Hit hard and fast before the sods have a chance to move. Some say this wisdom came on the advice of others but all leaders need cooperate with others to form a semblance of government. Early on he made a deal with the army and had the brownshirts liquidated; so he had to go along with the army recommendations for a while. He had an ace up his sleeve in formation of the Gestapo, they were not just into brutality but bending minds to suit their will by any means. Even the army became intimidated by their power.

One can see his continuing see-saw relationship with the generals in the way Rommel was treated, and he was no angel. At first the Generals raced across the Russia steppes taking this famous city and that famous city. Everybody in the German high command was happy until they had to admit their supply lines were over-extended and asked Hitler for more time and supplies to consolidate their victories.  

At that point he went berserk and told them to push on. Not only that but he would take personal command of operations. Many commanders were angry and flew back to talk to Hitler personally. Hitler did not lose his temper. He sat them down and used his great personal charm to convince them the war was being won, when actually each day any form of victory slipped further from of his grasp.

He could have made a tactical retreat and partitioned the territory already won. However, he had his evil heart set on capturing and making Stalingrad into a symbol of German might. That would have been a good move had the offensive been going to plan but the wheels were falling off so to speak, especially when winter came.  

What if the generals had their way? They may have stopped going forward altogether for no military advantage could be found in pressing on. Their supplies needed to be tripled and that was not about to happen. Troops needed to consolidate the Western front were tied down to favour a place where morale was never very high.  

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  Quote ChickenShoes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 15:17
Clap
 edgewaters, perfect point. there are so many what-ifs of nazi victory it's sickening and it is my belief that hitler ruined them all (thank god). Sure generals were jealous of each other and wanted to outdo the other and ignore what was best in a tactical situation, but in a grand stratagem, they all had brilliant ideas that hitler stomped on for his fanatical and vain beliefs based on little to no knowledge of anything military. he was just an austrian-draft dodger with a penchant for snappy suits and cool salutes and his total and utter belief that he was infallable led to defeat.  


Edited by ChickenShoes - 24-Jun-2007 at 15:21
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  Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jun-2007 at 12:54
well as u see i am new 
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2007 at 17:21
Originally posted by Illirac

history is not made by "if" and "maybe"
 
You forgot that this section of the forum is called "Historical Amusement"
 
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  Quote Illirac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2007 at 14:42
history is not made by "if" and "maybe"
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 01:56
Originally posted by pekau

Just because they are Russians does not mean they are supermans. They need clothing, food and warm shelter like Germans since they are all human beings. Many of the Russians were poor, their weapons crappy (If they had one) and their clothings worn, and no longer effective to keep them warm in brutal weather. Russian winter cerntainly halted the German advance, which gave Russians advantage... but Russians also suffered many deaths due to winter. ... Germans were exhausted due to numerical disadvantage, yes. But they don't get too tired when all they have to do is press the triggers. They were mostly better clothed, sheltered and fed compared to Russian soldiers.


Well, no. They were actually woefully underequipped for winter conditions compared to the Russians:

The German tanks had narrow treads with little traction and poor flotation in mud. In contrast, the new generation of Soviet tanks such as the T-34 and KV were far more mobile. The 600,000 large western European horses the Germans used for supply and artillery movement did not cope well with this weather. The small ponies used by the Red Army were much better adapted to this climate and could even scrape the icy ground with their hooves to dig up the weeds beneath.

Equipment had been prepared for such winter conditions, but the ability to move it up front over the severely overstrained transport network did not exist. Consequently, the troops were not equipped with adequate cold-weather gear, and some soldiers had to pack newspapers into their jackets to stay warm while temperatures dropped to record levels of at least -30C (-22F). To operate furnaces and heaters, the Germans also burned precious fuel that was difficult to re-supply. Soviet soldiers often had warm, quilted uniforms, felt-lined boots, and fur hats.

Some German weapons malfunctioned in the cold. Lubricating oils were unsuitable for extreme cold, resulting in engine malfunction and misfiring weapons. To load shells into a tank’s main gun, frozen grease had to be chipped off with a knife. Soviet units faced less severe problems due to their experience with cold weather. Aircraft were supplied with insulating blankets to keep their engines warm while parked. Lighter-weight oil was used. Gasoline, which powered all German tanks and most of their trucks, was subject to freezing in the harsh winters. Most Soviet trucks and pre-war tanks also used gasoline, but diesel fuel used in the new-generation of Soviet tanks did not freeze in winter.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa#Faults_of_logistical_planning

The big problem with the German planning was that they had planned for a quick war, as all their previous conquests had been. They expected the Soviet forces to collapse long before winter and the troops did not carry winter supplies forward with them. By the time German command realized they would be fighting in the winter, it was impossible to issue winter gear to the men at the front. There were no roads and no usable rail lines to get it to them.

For the Germans, winter meant that the roads didn't work, their guns didn't work, their tanks couldn't move, their horses couldn't cope, and their aircraft took ages to scramble while the engines warmed up. It's actually surprising they were not reduced to throwing snowballs at the Russians. That they were able to retreat without being totally annihilated and routed is a real miracle and must have been accomplished with unbelievably extraordinary effort. I cannot imagine what it would have been like running logistics in those conditions - you wouldn't even know how much was getting through to the front.

Edited by edgewaters - 08-Jun-2007 at 02:08
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 19:25
Blame the winter? Seriously... Yes, the Germans suffered Russian winter, but so did Russians. Just because they are Russians does not mean they are supermans. They need clothing, food and warm shelter like Germans since they are all human beings. Many of the Russians were poor, their weapons crappy (If they had one) and their clothings worn, and no longer effective to keep them warm in brutal weather. Russian winter cerntainly halted the German advance, which gave Russians advantage... but Russians also suffered many deaths due to winter. Germans took over farms, burned shelters and blocked many good transportation routes that Russians relied on.
 
Much of the German failure should be blamed on poor German leadership because it is true. Germans were exhausted due to numerical disadvantage, yes. But they don't get too tired when all they have to do is press the triggers. They were mostly better clothed, sheltered and fed compared to Russian soldiers.
 
And of course, Hitler is not only to blame. Many of the German high commanders were jealous of the talented generals. (Ex. Rommel) If they supported the brilliant generals and did exactly what they wanted, Germans would have been much more successful.
 
One obvious flaw that many huge empires and nations face is stretching of supply lines and their armies being scattered. This cannot be helped, though it can be improved. The antisemetism caused many non-Germans to join German military willingly.
     
   
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 23:21
Originally posted by aslanlar

However, Opperation Barbarossa was delayed by a month (about) when Italy needed help in taking the Baltic and Southern Europe. Because of this, although the German forces got close to Moscow (which would of seen an end to organized russian armies), they froze to death! The Russian winters are notoriously cold and not only did German soldiers only have summer clothing, but the oil for machinery froze, making them slow and extremely volnerable. If it wasn't for Italy, i think Hitler and his army would of defeated the USSR.
Also, opperation Sealion was never anything serious, it was an attempt that Hitler saw couldn't succeed and he gave up on it (If only he had radar :) ).
Like many others around, I think Germany would succeed in taking all of europe, but then be nuked. (But i don't think they would take Britain, it would result in too high casualties)
 
Yeah, it was the favorite explanation of the great Furher to blame in everything stupid Italians and Russian winter.  Why do not look for other reasons. Simply that the German Army was exhausted, while the Russians were able to get more and more reinforcements. German Army simply didn't have enough power to take Moscow in 1941 and the winter have nothing to do with it.
 
Don't you see that the best way to keep the high German morale was to blame winter but not the enemy in the defeat.
 
German troops were considered invincible so the only possible explanation for their failure in order to keep this myth further was to blame the harsh Russian climate.
 
May be it indeed helped to keep German moral for some time... But then Stalingrad and Kursk happened...
 
Strangely, Kursk happened in summer... I think this time the reason for the failure was the Red Heat or smth. like that LOL


Edited by Sarmat12 - 07-Jun-2007 at 19:54
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 23:03
Russia have taken out at least 75% of Germany's and its allies forces.
 
Without Russia America would have to take the main hit. Would Americans be willing to sacrifice millions of soldiers in order to save Europe?
 
It's one thing to invade Normandy when all the best troops and Panzer divisions are in the East and another thing to face all the might of Wermacht on the narrow Western European Sea coast.
 
If Russia felt, Gemany would concentrate all the efforts on building new advanced weapons. Most likely they would be able to produce jet fighters and long range rocket earlier than 1944.
 
All the industrial power of Europe, including industry and resources of Russia would be concentrated by the Nazi Reich. I doubt, that England would be able to stay for a long time.
 
If Germans could concentrate all their military industry for building heavy bombers in stead of building tanks for the Russian front, they most likely would win the second air battle for Britain.
 
If even the initial landing of American troop in Western Europe would be succesful, what's next?
 
At this time Germans could retreat to the East for God knows how long time. It would be another Eastern Front (at this time with the Germans on the East).
 
It seems to me that if Germans defeat Russia, the real outcome of the war would be stalemate.
 
I am not sure whether Americans would risk the massive invasion in Europe. At the same time Germans wouldn't have enough naval power to defeat the US.
 
So may be they would made an uneasy truce for some time, but in some decade WW III would follow with a very doubtful outcome.
 
P.S. It is the easiest way to blame the Russian winter, or General Frost in the German failure on the East in 1941. However, in fact it was not winter and not General Frost, but a Russian soldier who by sacrifising his life defeated the Nazi monster near Moscow.
 
I think Hitler was one of the author of this "winter theory." Indeed, how come these inhuman-commi could stop the superior Teuthonic-Arian armada. It is impossible of course ! The winter was the reason !
 
 
 


Edited by Sarmat12 - 04-Jun-2007 at 23:08
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  Quote antisocrates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2007 at 21:09
One thing to remember is that it took Stalin a decade or more to move the old Czarist industrial complex to the Urals, at tremendous human and economic cost, and that during peacetime.  If Germans hypothetically defeat Russians and either destroy or occupy the Urals complex, I do not see how they can offer any meaningful resistance.  Yes, there will be partisan warfare, but that won't be significant, given that the Nazis would be willing to engage in wholesale genocide of the Russians if necessary.  Remember that the Nazis never had the time to root their administration in Russia before the Soviets counterattacked.   If the Russians are completely destroyed militarily, the Nazi death squads can make short work of the "enemy", i.e., simply exterminate the entire population, village by village, city by city, province by province.
 
Furthermore, most of the Slavic Russian population is in European Russia.  Yes, Siberian regiments are tough, but they would be of little use without tanks and airplanes, and besides, they themselves would not be numerous enough to make difference.  The conquest of European Russia, including the Urals and Caspian oil fields, would cripple the capacity of Russia to engage in mechanical warfare.  There would be no Kursk, only slaughter of infantry against panzers and stukas.
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  Quote aslanlar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 11:16

Well sealion was serious but not to the extent of Hitler's ambitions of the USSR and France. Hitler did not want a war with Britain (and he had succeeded in removing them from France) and tried to quickly take control of the strait so that Britain was helpless. It was just a battle that would prove decisive if Britain remained in the war or not. However, i highly doubt that it was the victory of Britain that foiled Hitler's plans to defeat the USSR. It was the winter that slowed down the German army to a complete hault. It was the VERY VERY cold weather that destroyed the Germans, hundreds of thousands died from disease and frostbite. Also, this gave Stalin time to withdraw the Siberian Regiments (who were very efficient) from the eastern border (Japan) and to bring them against the Germans. I don't see how the USSR could possibly of defended itself if Germany had attacked 1 month earlier (or more).

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  Quote Scheich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 09:57
opperation Sealion was serious, if the Luftwaffe didn't stop bombing the air fields, the RAF would lost!
And the German air superiority would destroy the Royal Navy, because the WWII battelships had no chance against air attacks.
Without Britain Barbarossa would be sucessful, because the Germans could use poisen gas in USSR without RAF poisengas threat!
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  Quote aslanlar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2007 at 04:57
Blitzkrieg was the revolutionary new battle technique and it required speed and suprise. However, Opperation Barbarossa was delayed by a month (about) when Italy needed help in taking the Baltic and Southern Europe. Because of this, although the German forces got close to Moscow (which would of seen an end to organized russian armies), they froze to death! The Russian winters are notoriously cold and not only did German soldiers only have summer clothing, but the oil for machinery froze, making them slow and extremely volnerable. If it wasn't for Italy, i think Hitler and his army would of defeated the USSR.
Also, opperation Sealion was never anything serious, it was an attempt that Hitler saw couldn't succeed and he gave up on it (If only he had radar :) ).
Like many others around, I think Germany would succeed in taking all of europe, but then be nuked. (But i don't think they would take Britain, it would result in too high casualties)
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2007 at 16:37
Originally posted by Penelope

 Good points. And Yes, the United States would definately invade Russia as well, from Asia.
 
 
What? I said that Americans will help Russians, not attacking! Americans want to make sure that Russian resistance against Germany lives... Americans may stay out of war, but Americans simply watching Nazi Germany to take over Soviet Union sounds doubtful. Remember, once Soviet Union falls, America is next. Japan will follow the suit. I wonder, would the rise of Nazi Germany cause the Japanese Empire and America to combine their forces to maintain the balance of power?
     
   
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2007 at 23:22
Originally posted by pekau

Asian Russian forces... how effective would they be really?


The USSR's Siberian troops were considered some of the best, extremely tough and able to withstand cold temperatures.

By this stage the USSR had moved much of its production capabilities east of the Ural mountains anyway. With good production capabilities, good quality soldiers and a decent amount of the Soviet population under its control, the USSR could have made a strike back provided they maintained control of their remaining provinces.
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2007 at 23:17
Asian Russian forces... how effective would they be really?
     
   
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2007 at 22:58
It seems most likely that had the Germans captured European Russia, the a government in Asian Russia would have continued the fight with massive partisan assistance inside European Russia.
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2007 at 22:23
Originally posted by ChickenShoes

 
Yes, but if the Russians were on the verge of being conquered, they would definately have to utilize those areas, especially if the people had chosen not to submit to the invader.
 
oh yeah definitely. they probably would have moved behind the Urals and had administration at Omsk or Ufa or something, but it would have been guerilla warfare not a large army versus another, most of the Red Army would have already surrendered.
[/QUOTE]
 
Exactly, Guerilla Warfare.
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  Quote ChickenShoes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2007 at 14:02
 
Yes, but if the Russians were on the verge of being conquered, they would definately have to utilize those areas, especially if the people had chosen not to submit to the invader.
[/QUOTE]
 
oh yeah definitely. they probably would have moved behind the Urals and had administration at Omsk or Ufa or something, but it would have been guerilla warfare not a large army versus another, most of the Red Army would have already surrendered.
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