English in the Subcontinent

I was wondering, what portion of the Indian population speaks English, how well, and for how many is it their first language?

Also, what sort of English do they follow? Anglo-English, with "oraganise" and "mum"? American English, with "Organize" and "mom"? Or does English spoken in India come with its own alterations and unique attributes?

That is interesting, thankyou for that.

I was under the impression that many more than 40 million Indians spoke English. It seems likely that the burgeoning Indian middle class would take an especial interest in mastering English.

Originally posted by Sparten I can't speak for India, but English is the official language of Pakistan. All professional middle class people will be able to use it as a first language, whilst most people have at least a basic understanding of it.   What did the Shah of Iran say to Nixon, "The Indians and Pakistanis have to speak English to each other, otherwise they would never understand one another".

The Official language of Pakistan? Are you sure this is not an exaggeration Sparten? This claim seems to me to be very substantial.

I did have two Pakistani housemates, both whom had only arrived in Australia shortly before moving in and both of whom did have an excellant grasp of the language.

Wouldn't English be a language secondary to Urdu?

I think it would be a good idea to expand this thread to include all former British colonies in the subcontinent, rather than just India.

According to Wikipedia,the offical languages of Pakistan are Urdu and English.

However, I don't know if I believe the comment that they need it to understand each other--aren't Urdu and Hindi mutually intelligable, aside from having a different set of loanwords?

Originally posted by Sparten Well its pretty unrealistic to judge a whole nation on just 2 people. Yes English is Pakistan's official language. All government documents, business dealings, court rulings etc are in it. As are somthing like 90 % of the signs. As for Urdu and Hindi, yes they are mutally intellible, but it depends on the "sophistication" of the speaker, the more high brow Urdu becomes, the less Indians can get it and vice versa. Also remember, that Urdu is not the mother tougne for 90% of pakistanis (though all can speak it), for them its, Punjabi, Pukhto, Seraiki, Potohari, Sindhi, Brahui, Balochi, Chitrali, Dari, Balti, Kashmiri and Hindko depending on region. All in all they are 172 languages and dialects in Pakistan. So comment was very valid.

So people in Pakistan speak their local tongue, in addition to both English and Urdu?

Also, do people in the subcontinent receive much television from Anglo countries? I'm aware that Bollywood is booming, but how have people in the subcontinent taken to Western television and film?

Or does English spoken in India come with its own alterations and unique attributes?

From my own and my fathers Experiences, Indian English is rather different from English - normally down where and how it is used and how it is learnt.

From what I understand, most Indians that are expected or need to use English for their job, they quite often have to undergo speech lessons to change their English language and make it understandable to English speakers outside of India. The normal problems are the connection of works - not putting enought space between the words in a sentence - making them very difficult to understand. This is certainly a unique way of speaking English.

As for the spelling/Grammar - from what I've seen, Its impeccable. It takes the English way - it is not Americanized.

As Dan said, there are obviously some differences  - words that have become obsolete or forgotten in English, that are common in Indian English. However I believe that this:

Indian English Grammar can sometimes be perplexing to outsiders.  The order of words can vary from the norms of Standard English.  In Indian English it is acceptable to say, "What would you like to buy?" or to say, "It is the nature's way. Office is closed today," or to state, "My all friends are waiting."  Also acceptable are verbal constructions such as "He is having many books,"  "I am understanding it," and "The street is full of litters."  The present perfect is often used instead of the simple past so someone might say, "I have brought the book yesterday."  Certain verbs might be employed differently.  For example, one doesn't "obtain" permission; rather, one "takes" permission.

is untrue. Although I've seen and heard of many odd ways of Speaking/using English in India. I still believe that this way of speaking English is down to education and not a dialectual difference (like American English or Australian..). So I think you will find there are plenty of English Teachers that go around correcting this sort of English.

However, I must admit that I have only ever met and talked to Indians from a Middle Class Proffessional Background. I have no idea how it is for the Majority!


Edited by Ovidius - 15-May-2007 at 10:57

I think the official figure for English usage in India is a bit misleading.  Most educated people speak a mixture of English and their mother tongue informally (eg. Hinglish) with words and grammatical forms from both (or more) languages being used interchangeably, so maybe they don't get officially counted as English speakers but they do posess the ability to speak fluent English.  That said English still retains a sort of respect which means that anything formal is done in English, all official business is conducted in English, the vast majority of research/scholarship is in English and the biggest newspapers etc. are in English.    The two main national school boards are in English though the fluency of high-school graduates isn't guaranteed. 

Because people end up using different languages or different combinations of languages in different contexts, "Indian English" retains British spelling but the grammar (especially for the spoken form) gets influenced from whatever other languages the person speaks leading to novel constructions.  Here is an interesting article that talks about it. 

As Spartan says in Pakistan every educated person can speak English and Urdu with varying degrees of fluency depending on their education.

In India there is an even more pro English stand. The south of India (Tamil Nadu etc) has never been under the Hindu/Urdu hegemony that was established before the British*, therefore Tamils have the opinion that they have no desire or need to learn Hindi and instead will use English to communicate to their fellow Indians. One of my Tamil friends was preparing for university and had a choice to study Hindi or English. Although her Hindi was almost non-existent and her English already good, she was advised that English is the better option for gaining university entry.
So while in Pakistan people can be expected to speak English and Urdu, in India people cannot be expected to speak Hindi.

Originally posted by Ovidius As Dan said, there are obviously some differences  - words that have become obsolete or forgotten in English, that are common in Indian English. However I believe that this: ... is untrue. Although I've seen and heard of many odd ways of Speaking/using English in India. I still believe that this way of speaking English is down to education and not a dialectual difference (like American English or Australian..).

Hearing phrases like that are very common. Although you are right that this is not a dilectual difference but due to lack of fluency.

*For any significant amount of time at least


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 18-Jun-2007 at 03:38

Not to be disrespectful, but I am really having hard time to grasp Indian English. Everytime when I called Microsoft or Cisco tech support who happen to be Indian, I would have them communicated with me in email rather than phone conversation. I think Hank Azaria did a heck of job of portraying Indian English when he casts the voice for the role of "Apu" in The Simpsons.